Dr. Michael Mascolo is a developmental psychologist who has written on hierarchical complexity as well as "moral relationalism." In this conversation, we discuss the Dynamic Skill Theory of cognitive complexification before considering what it might mean for moral reasoning. We debate the normative implications of complexification itself, navigating the polar extremes of moral absolutism and moral relativism using a transjective framing. What value is there in tracing value itself down the evolutionary stack? What does this suggest about agency and free will? 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Hierarchical Complexity: Dynamic Skill Theory vs. MHC 9:48 Domains of Development: Particulars and Generalizations 16:00 The Moral Domain 19:47 What is a "Skill"? What is...Anything? 23:33 Is Complexity Normative? 32:48 Moral Relativism vs. Moral Relationalism 43:04 Ontological Normativity 55:30 Where Does "Morality" Emerge in the Complexification Process? 1:04:16 Agency, Emergent Causation, and Free Will 1:11:43 Conclusion