Industrial Athletes with Al Brown and Clayton Cartwright

Workers today face many physical challenges, from a demanding pace to heavy loads and static postures.  While the demands may not be at the same level as a professional athlete, a certain level of fitness and preparation is necessary for any worker to stay healthy or recover if an injury does occur.  Athletes at all levels benefit from functional movement training and proactive prevention that comes from the athletic training model.  If work can be thought of as an athletic process and the worker as an industrial athlete, then workplace safety can benefit as well.   On this episode of the MEMIC Safety Experts Podcast, I speak with Al Brown, MEMIC’s Director of Ergonomics and Clayton Cartwright, Safety Management Consultant about the Industrial Athlete and how the athletic training model can be used to maintain and improve worker health and safety.   Peter Koch: [00:00:04] Hello, listeners, and welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter Koch. So in the world of workers, there has been a long history of people doing physical jobs, non-physical jobs and also injuries over time, we've seen people get` injured doing really anything. It could be sitting at a desk. It could be doing a lot of manual material handling. It could be working in a foundry. It can be working in a construction space. It could be working in the retail area or hospitality or health care. So injuries happen across the board. And also, as we're starting to look at our workers, they're doing a lot of physical things, but they're sometimes those physical things aren't so obvious. So when we look at physical things, we might look at our athletic areas and our sports teams, whether it be a high school sports team, a college sports team or a professional sports team. And we see injuries there as well. We almost [00:01:00] expect an injury once in a while from those athletes because of the work, quote unquote, that they're doing. But we want to connect those two things together, because if we can see our workers as an athlete, we may actually be able to help them manage not only the load that they have to deal with on a regular basis, but also if they do get injured, to look at them as an athlete and treat them as we might treat an athlete as well. Well, on the line with me today is Al Brown P.T and MEMIC’s director of ergonomics and Clayton Cartwright P.T and safety management consultant here with MEMIC Al and Clayton. Great to have you on the podcast today. Al Brown: [00:01:39] It's great to be here, Pete, thanks. Clayton Cartwright: [00:01:41] Thanks, Pete. Thanks for having me. Peter Koch: [00:01:42] Fantastic. So it's great to have you both on today. And before we get started, let's get to know you a little bit better and tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves. So Al, you've been on the podcast before and let's start with you. Tell me about how you came to be interested in the worker as an industrial athlete. Al Brown: [00:01:58] Thanks, Pete. Yeah, actually, [00:02:00] I started my life out as an athletic trainer. I was a graduate of Penn State University and got to interact with a lot of their athletes, the football team and the soccer team, and then went on to be an athletic trainer, junior out of college in Huntingdon, Pennsylvania. And then from there was actually where I got to work with a professional team, the Los Angeles Dodgers, down in Vero Beach, and then from there on to physical therapy school and became a physical therapist and from that foundation of an athletic trainer and then becoming a physical therapist and working in the orthopedic world, working in worker's comp, began to make sense to me how I used to deal with the athletes in those settings and how I was dealing with injured workers in these new settings. So it made sense to me. It all kind of came together and it has been part of my philosophy since my beginnings [00:03:00] in this world. Peter Koch: [00:03:01] I didn't realize that you had done some work as an athletic trainer with sports teams before. I've known most of your history, but that's a nugget that I really didn't know before today. So thanks for sharing that. Al Brown: [00:03:14] I'm older than you think, Pete. You know, I'm older than dirt, so I've been doing a lot of things, but I only disclose dribbles of it every so often, you know, Peter Koch: [00:03:24] Teases out with it. That's OK. Al Brown: [00:03:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Peter Koch: [00:03:28] All right, Clayton. So this is your first time on the podcast, and you're somewhat new to MEMIC as well, but you've had a ton of experience working with athletes before you came to MEMIC. So tell us about your experience and how you came to see the worker as an industrial athlete. Clayton Cartwright: [00:03:43] Sure. So, you know, very similar to Al is my undergraduate studies were in the athletic training world and I went to the University of Pittsburgh, where, again, we worked with a lot of the sports teams and just so happened that our [00:04:00] university had a contract with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And I was able to, you know, fortunately enough for me, was able to land that position and did a season long internship with them that year. Amazing experience. And, you know, from there, it was kind of the same path. I went to P.T school, took that information that I had gathered as an athletic trainer. And then when I graduated P.T school and got into the orthopedic world, similar to Al, you know, I started making those comparisons to the, you know, worker's comp patients that I was treating, what they were going through, what types of settings they were in, and really comparing that to the athletes that I was seeing or had seen, you know, as an athletic training student. So very similar to Al. And again, it just kind of all made sense and put the puzzle pieces together, so to speak. Peter Koch: [00:04:54] Yeah, that's cool. And I think it's a really interesting path to take. And obviously, I've never [00:05:00] been an athletic trainer. I'm not a physical therapist. Played sports all my life and that that experience actually, as far as I got to look at injured workers before I came to MEMIC as a risk manager or as a patroller, as I would respond to injured workers at the ski area, it was interesting for me to bring in that experience as an athlete and look at some of those injuries, whether they be coming from the Hill as a ski instructor or maybe a lift mechanic or a lift operator, or I would see them in the office or someplace else in the hospitality. So let's break that open a little bit more about why we want to look at the worker as an industrial athlete. So let's talk a little bit about that. And why is it why is it good to be able to see them as it industrial athletes and make some connections to athletics and some of the work that gets done out [00:06:00] there in the field? Clayton Cartwright: [00:06:01] Sure. So I think, you know, when we look at them separately, you tend to see a lot of similar movement patterns. You know, they're doing repetitive type motions. You know, the stresses that they put on their body can be very similar in that regard. So, again, it's that comparison between even though we look at it differently, I think it's a good comparison to make when you're looking at them together like that. And one of our conversations we had had where, you know, there's so many different sports, but there's also so many different careers and job paths. And so that's where we really can make a connection as well. You know, sports have their own unique injuries per sport, sort of sports specific, you know, and you kind of look at that as a job site, job specific or site specific injuries. So, you know, there's a lot of similarities between the workforce and that sports athletic [00:07:00] population. Peter Koch: [00:07:01] That's cool. So can you maybe break it down a little bit more? Like is there an example that we can use maybe a factory worker or someone who is a package handler and maybe another sports analogy that we can make those two connections and see how those moving patterns might be similar, you know, and also how those moving patterns may create an injury as well. Clayton Cartwright: [00:07:28] Yeah. So, you know, let's take, for example, maybe a swimmer, a swimmer is a lot of overhead movement patterns, you know, and then they have to do kick turns. And depending on how they've been coached, they may kick turn in the same direction the same time, or they maybe have the ability to switch. That's a different conversation. But, you know, then we can maybe take somebody that you wouldn't think would be an athlete, maybe like a mail delivery, you know, person who's driving. You know, they are maybe constantly reaching or turning to the left [00:08:00] to open a mailbox. So they're constantly pulling open a door. And it's just that repeated motion day in, day out for, you know, eight hours a day. So you're just seeing those repeated motions that are in a certain movement pattern. And that's where we get those repetitive stress sort of injuries that we tend to see with repeated motions like that. Peter Koch: [00:08:22] Yeah, again, really interesting. And I like that analogy of the swimmer, because it is I mean, if you think about if I'm doing a five hundred or if I'm doing a one hundred or whatever that is and I'm doing the backstroke. Kraul Butterfly doesn't matter what it is, the repetitious nature of the shoulder circle that has to happen is just constant. And then the forces placed on that. But it's different, too, because as a professional swimmer or even as a college level swimmer or high school, you're going to have a coach that helps to work you through some of those processes. And they understand the warm up and they understand the stretching and they understand good movement [00:09:00] patterns. And they understand that when you start to do these things, that you could be on the cusp of an injury. So they're going to adjust for you, but the worker in industry doesn't have that. And so I think if we if we start to look at the worker a little more as an athlete. Maybe we can adjust how they will approach their own job and maybe how they or as a supervisor or a manager may be able to make that connection so that we can stem off an injury, whether it be by job change or by a behavior change. So one of those two things. So neat connection there, Clayton, neat connection. And I'm going to throw this out to both of you and maybe, Al, you have something in there as well. Can you, is there any statistics at all that are out there that that talk about companies that have done some studies around the work patterns that have happened and maybe things that they've [00:10:00] done to be successful in changing patterns, much like a coach would change if they're looking at their team or their athletes individually? Al Brown: [00:10:10] It's interesting. I see three types of injury or three kinds of injuries. You see the trauma and we have trauma in the workforce. You know, the sprained ankle, sprained ankle. In sports, you have the overuse which you guys were talking about, which is a biomechanical repeated activity, which we will see that. And then you have sort of the fatigue kind of injuries, those things that occur, the, you know, the end of the day or at the end of the game or, you know, when someone's really starting to get tuckered out. So there is those parallels that you see. One of the downsides is with the athlete or one of the upsides to the athlete. It's sort of a natural selection process. And as those skill levels in those athletic levels continue to proceed towards professional, they bring [00:11:00] some genetics along with them and they also bring a team of people that keep them healthy. Unfortunately, in the workforce, we don't always have that and we certainly don't have that team that sort of follows them along. And I think industry's beginning to discover the value of that, that we need to look at those. Al Brown: [00:11:20] And to your question about have industries looked at that, I think there was a study done by UPS and it was in Northern California. You can look it up online. It was around 2005. And they had one of their they have five or 50 districts. And there was one district there that was the worst in terms of injuries, injury rate, frequency, severity. And so they took it upon themselves to focus a sports medicine model in that region, which included stretching, strengthening, awareness, education. And [00:12:00] within two years, they went from being fiftieth in the region, the worst to number one. And it was simply by changing those behaviors and changing the focus of care to more of a sort of athletic training model. It's, you know, let's be right there. Let's look at the root cause. Let's try to figure out the biomechanics of some of the problems and solve those, but then also incorporate the stretching, the strengthening, the balance, the core strength, those kinds of things so that you made a better industrial athlete. Cool study. Peter Koch: [00:12:38] Yeah, cool. And that's interesting. Just by utilizing that athletic training viewpoint in in how they're making changes or how they're viewing the worker and the tasks that they're doing, you can make a big change. And I think we're going to get into that. I know we're going to get into that a little bit more in the podcast as we start talking about some of the things that they did in and how [00:13:00] they actually implemented that athletic training model. But Clayton, maybe I can have you explore this a little bit more to about what that athletic training model kind of is. And talk a little bit about your experience with the sports teams and how you brought that into your PT career and what that athletic training treatment model might be when you're working with an athlete. Clayton Cartwright: [00:13:24] Yes, so, you know, just based off of, again, my experiences as a clinician and going through the athletic training to the party, know then eventually into some fitness stuff that I really enjoy doing. You know, I kind of break it into sort of three parts. Right. So that athletic training model is really that observational piece where you're there on the sideline, you're watching games, you're watching practice. And if you see an athlete go down, you've observed that injury. And just through education, you know, you can start to put it together, you [00:14:00] know, of maybe some of the injuries that could have happened for that. You know, I you know, I'm a big football fan. So sitting on the couch watching football, you know, if I see something, I see a play or player go down. I've done it so many times with my wife, I'll say I bet you that's an actor. Next thing you know, ACL tear. So, you know, it's just that observational piece. You kind of learn it through observation and education. And then, you know, going to the PT side is more of that treatment aspect, getting into the treatment side of it. So back to your question. As far as the athletic training approach, it's really being able to identify it early and get that early intervention that is so, so crucial. You know, and there is a lot of research out there to support that early intervention helps with long term outcomes. And again, I think this is something that we're going to dive into a little bit more during the podcast. But, you [00:15:00] know, that's kind of where I see that athletic training model fitting in to that to the workforce. Early intervention, you know, address it as soon as you can. Al Brown: [00:15:11] Yeah. You know, it was funny because I have to laugh. Funny little story. I love football, too, so it's great. Same thing. You sit there, you watch, you observe. You know what we were talking about different types of jobs. And one year at Penn State, it was my job to cover the state final cross-country meet on the golf course, which goes around the perimeter of the golf course. And they said, oh, so you're thinking what could happen here? I had more athletes go down during that event, couldn't observe them, but it was we need an athletic trainer over at mile two we have someone that's down. You know, we got someone down over one mile one. I probably put in as many miles that day, the cross-country athletes. But again, I had to speculate. It was more [00:16:00] hyperventilating. It was those types of things or was an Achilles injury. So I didn't get to observe. But again, in your mind, my first perception was not going to be much going on here. And then it was like, I have a whole new respect for that type of thing. So the athletic training model came in many different shapes, sizes and flavors, as do you know, industries. So you do have to understand your industry, understand what you might anticipate, but then you have to go and collect and see the data and understand it and then you can make an effective change. So, yeah, same thing. Same thing. Peter Koch: [00:16:34] That's interesting. I have a similar experience as a ski patroller, so it's one of the mountains that I work at here. We have a big cross-country following and we actually had the Chevy Nationals happen from a cross-country standpoint. And when they come, there's hundreds and hundreds of elite college athletes that are coming and will have a similar piece as a patroller. We have to either respond [00:17:00] to the injury that occurs and it could be a traumatic injury from a fall or it could be a medical issue whether it's hyperventilating or it could be a frostbite piece. Some of the patrollers that I that I work with don't have a cross-country experience. So they're treating them from the perspective of, say, an alpine event or an alpine injury or an injury that might happen from downhill skiing instead of cross-country skiing, where as the cross-country athlete, I've done cross-country myself. I actually had one of the coaches there. And we're looking at the particular individual as we're coming in. They're being treated by another patroller. The patroller is on one tactic and thought process about what the injury is where because I know more and the coach knows a lot about what's happening with that particular athlete, they're able to weave that experience into to understand what's going on with that person a little more naturally and then be able to direct care [00:18:00] a little bit more accurately. Peter Koch: [00:18:02] So the value of being either there to observe or to be able to observe prior to the injury happening. So not just watching the worker as they get injured or seeing it happen, but actually watching and gaining data about what's going on in the industry on the shop floor with your workers is a key part to really understanding what's happening, so that's a really connective piece that we want to we want to bring back into our model there. Let's take the injury that happens to the worker or let's actually bring it to the athletic side to start with and then we'll move it over to the worker. So when someone does get injured, they're going to experience some sort of pain and everybody experiences pain differently. But we've had conversations about this, too. And as the provider, whether you're the athletic trainer or the PT or you might even be the [00:19:00] coach at the time when the person gets there, how you approach or how you communicate with that worker or the athlete about pain is a pretty critical part in how the individual might experience their recovery over time. So could you talk a little bit about how that initial conversation and the ongoing conversation with the athlete about their pain levels can help or hinder the actual recovery? Clayton Cartwright: [00:19:27] Yes, so an area that I really started to kind of gain some interest in was this whole concept of pain science, which is really a really fascinating topic. And so what I started to learn from that process is that communication piece. You know, when we approach somebody and start asking them about their pain and what they're feeling. There are so many variables that goes into that on an individual basis. It could be their prior experiences. I mean, there is just a wide variety of [00:20:00] things that have impacted their life that could amplify or decrease the amount of pain that they're experiencing. So one thing that that really kind of stands out is how I started to approach asking patients, athletes about their pain experiences, you know, instead of always asking them, you know, we hear the standard rate, your pain on a scale from zero to 10 like that was you know, you ask that pretty much on a daily basis over. Peter Koch: [00:20:25] How much does it hurt? Right. Because that's the first question that happens, right? If someone comes to you and they're limping. How much does that hurt or are you in pain? And it starts the conversation. It's almost a conversation starter. So interesting. So keep going. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Clayton Cartwright: [00:20:38] No, no. I mean, that's exactly it is. But then what happens is, is that is our go to question every time. What's your pain, what's your pain, you know, so if you are continuingly to ask somebody what their pain level is, well, now what you've done is you started to make them just think about it more. And [00:21:00] so what we see and what we know is pain is processed in the brain. Right. So let's take, for example, touching a hot stove. Right. The stimulus is the hot stove. That information goes to the brain. Your brain says it's a threat. So I'm going to produce pain to let you know that you shouldn't do that again. And so what happens is when you start to constantly ask somebody about their pain levels, well, now their pain sort of increases because they're constantly thinking about it and they think that it should maybe hurt more than what they're telling you. And so pain is subjective to the person. Right. But you sort of see I've seen patterns when I was practicing as a therapist where pain levels would slowly kind of creep up for some people. Clayton Cartwright: [00:21:51] So it was it was very interesting. So my approach then started to be more asking functional type questions or questions [00:22:00] that would maybe help build them up a little more. For example, I might say something like, hey, well, tell me what something that you could do this week that you weren't able to do last week. So I'm not really directly asking them about their pain. I'm asking them more about function. And so in their head, if they're if they hadn't been thinking about it that way and they can say, oh, well, hey, I was able to do my daily walk for two miles and, you know, a little bit of discomfort, but it was I could do it, you know, automatically that that sets them up for success. That's a victory for them. And so if you can kind of help point them in that direction versus always asking them about pain, you know, I just felt like it was a much better approach to their care. And it seemed to it seemed to really help with recovery process. So it's very interesting. Al Brown: [00:22:50] Pain is one of those things that's kind of cool. I mean, it's cool. That's kind of weird sounding. But, you know, going back to the athletic training world, [00:23:00] when you'd have someone that went down and they're writhing in pain out on the field, my approach, the first thing was to just calm them down before I started to assess, just to get them to understand or get them let them explain to me what happened and then try to get them to realize all those other parts of your body aren't hurt. You can kind of let those relax a little bit. Let's just look at the knee, if that's what just got hurt. And once they realized there was a calming effect there, you could move forward. Sort of same thing in the PT world. You know, I'd have folks that would come in that might have an injured shoulder. They would have this fixed hand posture trying to move things around and they wouldn't move their hand. And I go, What's up with your hand? And they go, Why? And I go, you're moving it around like it's injured. And I said, just open and close your fingers. And I go, Oh, I said, Yeah, you can do that. It's kind of an illness posture. And part of that is subconscious. Part of it is unconscious. And [00:24:00] you can get into other problems because they stop moving that. Al Brown: [00:24:03] And if we were to focus on pain all the time, you probably would go round and round just like Clayton said. You know, there's situations where it begins to escalate. So function. I'm a real fan of focusing on function in terms of looking at, you know, work related activities. It's great in the in the sports world, it's pretty easy to. Not easy, but there's a logical progression back towards the athletic event in the work world, sometimes we get into this light duty and, you know, on light duty, off light duty. What does that mean? Where I'd like to look at it more because words matter. I like to look at it more as transitional work. And when you take that functional model and you use that word transitional work, it works much better because you are transitioning the person back to that job task. But you do it by looking at function like it, Clayton said. What can you do today that you couldn't do [00:25:00] last week? Oh, I can. You know, it doesn't hurt to hold this tool anymore and. OK, good. Let's you know, and then progress accordingly. And for the employer that works a whole bunch better, too, because light duty on and off is like a light switch. Either you're on it or you're off it. Al Brown: [00:25:16] And that can bring psychological issues that if you're about to say to someone, you're off light duty now, they're going to go, oh my God. But I still have you know, I still have issues where if you're transitioning, doesn't matter if you just kind of move along that timeline and back to function. And you might here's my ergo pitch. You might have to modify that job, but that modification might be a permanent improvement to the job, which will probably talk about a little bit later. But so that functional approach is huge and one that was ingrained in our the one thing we didn't I didn't mention earlier, but I worked on site in industry for a number of years, which was more the athletic training model. So I was at the playing field for the for the [00:26:00] workers. Not every company has that luxury, but that was huge to be able to walk out and actually see the job and make the modifications. So 100 percent pro functional approach because it really does address the pain but doesn't you don't get into a direct conversation about it because, you know, like I think I explained to you guys earlier, I could hit all our hands with a hammer. And Clayton might wince a little bit. You might not you go, is that the best you got? I'd probably Peter Koch: [00:26:31] I might whine. All right. Al Brown: [00:26:32] Yeah, I might cry for the next three days. And it was the same force, but we all perceive the pain differently. So, you know, it is it is truly it's all those past experiences that help determine our pain response. Clayton Cartwright: [00:26:47] And I think that that was a great comment you made about the calming effect of what we think of that approach and the communication style. And so something that I saw a lot, too, is, you know, people [00:27:00] bringing imaging studies, x rays, MRIs, you know, and it might say on there you have mild, mild degeneration at X, Y, Z, a certain disk or whatever. And what they would see is, oh, I have degeneration in my back, but they don't see mild, you know, those key terms that, you know, that degenerative processes is a part of the aging process. You know, so sometimes you would just explaining that to them would help to take some of that tension off of them. Right. Because if they're thinking, oh, my gosh, degeneration in my back, oh, I'm going to need surgery and all of a sudden their head, you know, we've all done it with certain things. You know, you just start compounding the oh, my gosh, this is the end of the world kind of thing. But if you have somebody who can at least sort of talk you off the ledge, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, that calming effect of being able to approach somebody like that does, again, huge impact with how we communicate with and it's the same in the [00:28:00] workforce to the athletes. So I think that's a great point. Al Brown: [00:28:04] I used to torture those folks sometimes because they come in and they go, I got this degenerate disc disease and, you know, it would be a 50 year old. And I go, well, if you didn't, you'd be a genetic freak, for God's sakes, I'd like to know how the heck you don't have any. I said, welcome to Gravity. We all live in gravity. Eventually things are going to wear out. That's why we end up back as dirt later on. So, of course, you've got some arthritic changes in your body. That's part of the aging process. So I try to diffuse it that way if I can. Peter Koch: [00:28:35] I think it's always good to try that and thinking about it from the functional transition or transitioning to one function to another, function to another, or progressing in function is another. I guess a better way to look at that versus pain management is for lack of a better term, much more functional way of dealing with whether it be an injury on the athletic field or to an athlete [00:29:00] on the athletic field or the industrial athlete, because that's the whole intent of it. Right. We want to get people back to what they were doing. And if you're getting paid to play football, you're getting paid to play a particular sport. Doesn't matter what it is, you're going to want to get back to functions somehow and talking about function as what could you do versus what you can't do and what do you want to be able to do. And then moving someone towards that, I think is a is a great way to do it. Instead of saying, OK, we're just going to manage your pain through whatever process we want your pain to be an eight so that you can do this well, it might still be an eight. So we're going to look at how you actually move through that pain or in that pain, and we'll figure out a way for you to rest or work to the point where you can start recovering and getting better. Clayton, in some of our conversations, there were a couple of different things that you had brought up that said principal. [00:30:00] And can you talk a little bit about that and how maybe that works towards that pain management process in the transition back to function? Clayton Cartwright: [00:30:08] The human body is pretty incredible, you know, and it is designed to heal itself, you know? So I think that's really important for people to hear and understand. And so what the SAID principle is or stands for really is specific adaptations to impose demands, fancy terminology. But really what that means is that the stresses that we put on our body, our body is going to adapt to that. So I think we had talked about an example of that would be, say, an ankle sprain. You know, what I might do with that person first is we might just have them walk and see if they can tolerate that. Do that for a little while. OK, let's try a little bit of light jogging so we get the jogging doing well right now. We're going to progress to running straight lines. They do well. All right. Now, maybe some cutting and pivoting work start to do well with that. Right now, we're going [00:31:00] to get back into sports specific training or work specific training again to allow that person to ask an athlete or a worker to see their successes and see that they are progressing in the right direction. So but it's important, though, that you understand you have to put stresses on the body. You always hear the RICE principle, right rest ice compression elevation, which to an extent. Can be good, but again, it's very early on in the process. At a very early stage. You need to start to put the body under some tension, you know, in order to make that progress back to the level that they're at. So a principle that I would think about often, you know, especially when I was in the clinic, you know, treating patients so and that you're treating patients from a work perspective. And my athletes, again, it's I looked at them pretty much the same. Peter Koch: [00:31:55] Yeah. And that goes, I think Al, to your point before that, that the [00:32:00] idea of light duty as being that kind of that light switch. Right. So I'm on light duty. I'm off light duty doesn't actually provide for that principle to put stresses on the body in a measured time or at through measure time in order to generate healing. And you've talked about this Al in other podcasts before, kind of going towards what Clayton was talking about, about the RICE principle. If the treatment is rest, ice compression elevation and that's all you do, what happens to you? Right. So I'll throw that to you also, if that's what we do, what happens if all we ever do is rest the injury? Al Brown: [00:32:39] Yeah, I can draw an analogy or comparison here between the sports world to let's just look at what an athlete goes and participates. They do some, they do different things. They elevate their tolerance level and they do that through strength training, endurance training, flexibility, you know, in the world of strength [00:33:00] training, just to understand the physiology, you go in and you do something to Claytons point that sort of the SAID principle you've got to create. You know, you go in and you lift a certain weight and it'll cause some tearing down of the tissue. And one of two things happens. You either get injured or you your body adapts, but it takes probably about 48 hours, 24 to 48 hours for your body to recover from that if you make an appropriate inroad in on the body physically. So you sort of tear the body down and then it gets stronger. So you need that recovery period. And then you come back maybe on a Monday, on a Wednesday, you come back again and do it again with a lot of workers. They don't do a lot of other things other than their work activities. So that is sort of their tolerance level. So unfortunately, tolerance and work activity are sort of the same line with the athlete. Usually there's a tolerance or a fitness level that's above where their exposure level is. So there is a buffer in there. [00:34:00] So the worker, it's a little trickier in that if they have they work overtime one day or they have extra packages or the poor U.P.S. Al Brown: [00:34:09] folks that have been in FedEx have just been shipping more stuff than they ever have. They're going to bump above that activity line. So either if the industry's good and they sort of gradually progress them into that, they may adapt. And again, that fitness line and work line are going to follow each other. This company in Northern California took a more proactive approach and said, let's get that wellness line, fitness line way above the work line and see if that helps. And sure enough, it created a buffer to protect their workers. So it takes a lot of effort to do that. So you can see how if an industry just is sort of a rice type of person will just do first aid kind of and never do anything more than that. You will always have to be cognizant of those moments [00:35:00] where activity goes over and above the overtime that harder work. And it's even down to like accounting, like month ends. Someone sits and puts twelve hours into the day at a desk and all of a sudden there goes my arm first and arm hurt. Well, there it is again. You know, you've exceeded that tolerance level. So when you're looking at things and you're looking at said principle, sometimes if it's a fairly passive company, that line of wellness in that line of work are pretty much the same levels. So. Peter Koch: [00:35:37] Let's take a quick break so I can tell you about our E Ergo resource that can be used to help solve ergonomic challenges at your workplace, sometimes contacting, contracting with and scheduling an ergonomics or occupational health nurse for an onsite evaluation doesn't really fit with our Just-In-Time workflows in a competitive economy. Fixing the problem right now is essential, [00:36:00] and improving worker comfort and efficiency are key components to ongoing success. So free to our policyholders. MEMICs E Ergo tool can help you overcome ergonomic challenges. With just five quick photos or a short 30 second video and a brief explanation of what is being shown. You can send us the critical demands and essential functions within the work tasks once received. Our ergonomics team can identify risks and exposures and provide reasonable suggestions for ergonomic improvement within just a few short days. Start the E Ergo process by logging into the MEMIC safety director at www.youtube.com/Workplace Safety. Now let's get back to today's episode.   And it becomes challenging then, especially if they're in that same level, like you said, to try to increase the stresses, to be able to have that buffer. And that is that's a tricky part. But I think recognizing [00:37:00] that and to the point of towards the athletic training model of being there on the shop floor, being there with the workers to see what's going on, have your finger on the pulse of the activity level or the business levels to see where that might lay, might be able to help stem off some of that stuff. Peter Koch: [00:37:21] But even on the injury side, like post injury, like if you never if you never move the injured part, I mean, just think about it. If you've ever been injured in any of our listeners, if you've ever been injured before and you're just coming out of the cast from a broken whatever it is, you know, the first couple of days coming out of that cast is really super challenging. And all you really want to do is sit down and do nothing. But if you sit down and do nothing and just rest it, you're never going to get past the atrophy that has happened from being still in that cast for so long. And then to your point, before Clayton, your body will adapt. So in another [00:38:00] way, your body has adapted to that limb being stationary for a while and it's challenged other parts of your body. It might have challenged your gait. It might have challenged your hip posture. It might have challenged your shoulders. So all those things have to be looked at and adjusted and you can't do that unless you're moving. So I think movement in a in in a healing principle is pretty important. And that goes to looking at your providers that you're going to be engaging with as a workplace so that your occupational health providers need to understand that principle of bringing your individuals back to health through that transitional duty rather than just light duty on off switch like you had set out. Al Brown: [00:38:43] And that's part of the vetting process. As an employer, you need to go out and know who your Occ. Med providers are, because the family doc is great for family doctor things. But a lot of times they're approached because they may not be intimate with the job tasks. [00:39:00] And the work test at the bed may be, you know, familiar with my er to the side of conservative and say, go back to rice. And when we rested for a couple of weeks and see how it goes and now we start to create that illness behavior, it's the athlete that doesn't get back into play. You know, we're waiting. We're waiting. It's the MASH Army unit, you know, the mobile army surgical hospital. They did they learned early on that we've got to move that very close to the front lines, get folks healed and back and return them back, you know, as sad as that is. But that's it. Psychologically, it worked much better than to have them go so far back from the line. And then there's a barrier of return. Same thing with work, same thing with athletics. So it's important to kind of take that, you know, very proactive approach. And by your vetting process of looking at your provider, getting to understand, are they functionally focused, do they understand their job tasks? Is their goal to get that person [00:40:00] back to work? You know, so you're right. You're exactly right about that. Clayton Cartwright: [00:40:05] And that that communication piece is crucial. You know, I know we've talked and Al, you talked about your experiences about being actually on site, you know, within a company, but certainly understanding that not every business can certainly afford that on site provider to be there, you know, 24/7 or during hours of operation. So, look, you know, using your local community, there are PT clinics, a dime a dozen now, you know, I'm sure. And that's that vetting process. You know, you could even probably go out and find a provider that, you know, might possibly be able to come in and do some analysis with you or something along those lines. So it's important, I think, to also realize that there are providers out there and it is a little bit more of a proactive approach, but can certainly help you in the long run by identifying those key players, you know, that that you want to have on your side. Peter Koch: [00:40:58] Yeah, and that's a great lead. [00:41:00] And I think to start talking about the athletic training model for injury prevention as well. So we're starting to kind of merge those two. We've talked quite a bit about when an injury happens, how you talk to the injured worker about their pain, about their function or function versus pain and how we communicate with our providers. And now we're looking at helping or getting our providers to help us assess our workplace, not just from an A maybe an improvement after an injury occurs, but it could even be assessing the workplace to prevent injury in the first place. And I think some of that happened. It's obviously post injury. But with the NorCal study there, Al, that that UPS did made some. Changes using that athletic training model to help reduce injuries overall, so they combined the or used injuries as a I'm missing the word here. Al Brown: [00:41:57] So sort of a motivator. You know, kind [00:42:00] of the thing that affected change is they actually that was the motivator to effect change. Peter Koch: [00:42:06] So good. Yeah, that's a great point that it is the motivator. So they looked at their losses. They understood that they're in a place where they need to have some change happen. And then they implemented the model and made some. Made some. Al Brown: Adjustments Peter Koch :to address things as they could, based on that, they said not just the information, but I'm sure they had people come in and assess the workplace. So let's talk some about how we can use that injury or the athletic training model to manage injury prevention, reduce injuries in the first place. Al Brown: [00:42:40] I can tell you there's a couple industries that I've worked with that have done that there. You know, I'm sure they won't mind me using their name. L.L. Bean. It was, a very proactive, very much looking at design, talking to the industrial athlete about how can we best make the work environment fit them. As a matter of fact, thirty [00:43:00] eight years, 40 years ago, they actually created the first sit/ stand workstations, you know, which are very commonplace nowadays, probably popular over the last ten years. But they did it way ahead of time because they realized they were seeing more injuries in the phone center. So they actually created sit/stand workstations with the equipment they had at the time. Move fast forward. And you now see many of their checkout stations are fully adjustable. So if a different statured worker comes in, someone might be five one and there was a six two person there prior. They can adjust the workstation down electrically in the packing areas. They realize people are having wrist hand issues. So they actually started a strengthening program through gripping programs and they actually saw a reduction in their injuries. So that's that more said principle, like let's stimulate, but to do it proactively so we can increase that that fitness level or that wellness level above the work level. Al Brown: [00:43:59] You go [00:44:00] to a place like the Jackson Labs up in Bar Harbor and they're also in Farmington, Connecticut, and out in Sacramento, they actually have a simulated workplace that if someone is having issues, they actually demonstrate what they do at the workplace to see if biomechanically they're doing something that we can modify just biomechanically and change, like the runner that's got, you know, plantar fasciitis. And we might, through an orthotic or some taping is an industrial athlete, is an athlete, help with the biomechanics. So they look at the biomechanics, but then they also look at the ergonomics that that designed the designs. Really not that good. We need to maybe modify the design, too. So I've worked with different industries that have had that luxury to be at the front lines and have taken different approaches. And again, to Claytons Point, not everybody can afford to have that on site presence. But I have worked with industry where we've gone as MEMIC [00:45:00] onsite to help them to understand some of those nuances and to look at it through that athletic training model. Peter Koch: [00:45:08] Clayton, how about you? So how would you bring the athletic training model to bear on some of the maintenance? Maybe it's preventative maintenance or other tactics that the employer can use to help stem off injuries within the workplace? Clayton Cartwright: [00:45:21] Yeah, so finding that person who sort of understands the industry and I kind of take it back to that example I gave earlier with sitting on the couch watching a football game, you watch and you watch something happy. You say, oh, I think that's a blunt ACL tear. Well, if you have somebody who understands the business and what types of tests you're doing, that that person can certainly help maybe identify and be proactive in identifying those things like LL Bean. Al, you were saying for, for example, identifying those things that could potentially lead to an injury. Right. Because if [00:46:00] you don't correct the source that injured worker could go get treatment, get all better, 100 percent, come back and they're back into the same positions that they were in before and now you're back to square one. So it's having that proactive approach to be able to identify it. But also there is, I think, some onus on the workforce and the employee, you know, with just even you know, we talk about preventative maintenance type stuff, you know, at the professional level, you know, I was with the Steelers. I mean, those guys would spend a lot of money, you know, to massages, acupuncture. I mean, they would do everything they had plus there to provide treatments and go through rehab protocols and those things. And that's not necessarily within the realm of the traditional workforce. But there are things that you can certainly do outside of work. You know, instead of going home and sitting at the end of the day, you know, maybe you're [00:47:00] doing a walk or you have some type of strength training program or program that that you like to do. So you're trying to do that a couple of days a week to keep your body sort of in shape and in tune with what you want to complete it as far as the workers concerned. So some lifestyle choices, I think, is also a big a big area to focus on. Peter Koch: [00:47:25] Yeah. And I think the athletic training model can certainly help that. And as you're talking, what struck me was that we've been talking about the similarities between the worker and the athlete. I think a big difference, and especially when we start to look at injury prevention and what tools you can employ to protect the worker or the athlete. The biggest difference is from the athlete's standpoint, the sport's not going to change. You're not going to go into it thinking, all right, we're going to make football noncontact or we're going to make so you don't have to swing the tennis racket both ways or [00:48:00] you can only do something. The sport's not going to change. So the athlete has to adapt their body. Must adapt their body to the demands of the particular sport. As a worker, the job and we've seen this before in every industry, there are many aspects of the job that can change. And that goes to the maybe a discussion about the hierarchy of controls as we start to look at how do we manage the as you said before, Clayton, the threat to the particular industrial athlete. So the sports athlete, you're not going to change the sport. You've got to change the person or have to harden the athlete to the particular job as the worker. I think the place where we should start first is what you were alluding to before having someone come in. Or maybe you have the expertise right within your own your own business to assess the workspace, to see what changes we can [00:49:00] make. So can you maybe talk a little bit about that from the not so much the athletic training standpoint, but what's the benefit and where does that fit in with the hierarchy of controls and how does that manage injuries within the workplace? Clayton Cartwright: [00:49:14] So, you know, I think when we look at that hierarchy of controls, right, we're looking at things like eliminating hazards or coming up with engineering controls. So we're trying to really reduce the stress that the employee is putting on their bodies. Right. Because, again, if we go and we look at the athlete who maybe they have the luxury of taking some rest days after competition, right. Where the workforce doesn't. So that's where it becomes sort of critical to be able to reduce some of that loading in that stress on their bodies, you know, to reduce the risk of developing some type of injury on site. So I [00:50:00] think that is where, you know, we as MEMIC I think, really thrive is being able to help with that process. So. That's kind of the way that I look at it. Al Brown: [00:50:11] I'll give you some historical perspective, too. You know, I think I've been around a little longer than Clayton, you know, and that was just birth order. But I just had an interesting thought as he was talking. And it was about and let's just use football, think about the tools of football when football started. Think about did they wear helmets? They don't start with no, and then they said we're probably having some head injury, so we really need to. So then they created these leather things and put those on people's heads and then they said, boy, a lot of smashed noses. Maybe we ought to create a face mask, you know? And then it was the single bar and then it was the multiple bar. [00:51:00] And then people were get poked in the eyes. And now we've got plexiglass over the eyes and, you know, so and just think of just a helmet, not let alone I mean, just all the other pads have changed tremendously. And then you go to the industrial side and you go think of the first pick, something simple screwdriver, you know, and it was this linear thing that you put your hand on. You turned, you know, and you had to make sure you stayed in the slot and forearm pain, all kinds of discomfort. And then we had the inline electric screwdriver. And now we've got a pistol grip, you know. So again, I think function and form sort of change, but it's through reacting and looking at where are we seeing the injuries and how do we sort of prevent those from occurring. So humans have the same physiological limits they always have. You know, we haven't changed. I mean, we're changing a little bit, but actually I think we're getting a little weaker. Al Brown: [00:51:58] But for the most part, that physiology [00:52:00] has pretty much stayed the same. And we have gotten smarter. And what we tolerate is much less to I mean, you think about what coal miners used to go through and go, oh, we lost one today, you know, call HR and that was brutal. And now we don't tolerate that kind of stuff. So the laws have kind of pushed us in that direction and the care of human beings. So, you know, our mantra at MEMIC is I want you to I want, you know, when you I want you to go home from work feeling just as good as when you came in. You know, I don't want you to go home feeling pain and discomfort. So, you know, part of that solution process sometimes with industry is to help folks look with a different set of eyes and take that proactive approach and try to find maybe a change to find the exposure and risk and then try to address it might be through education, but it might also be through modification of the job and reengineering in the long run. You know, [00:53:00] you get a person that feels better. They're going to work better, less exhaustion. And at the end of the day, that company's going to have a better product because you don't have a fatigue, sore, achy worker trying to put the last not on the trailer light and does a poor job. And next thing you know, the consumer buys that trailer and the trailer lights falling off and it's well because of the bad ergonomics of the design. So it's a win win win. When you look at that whole that whole system, Peter Koch: [00:53:28] It's good to look at your history and look at the injuries and try to prevent it that way. But I think from again, looking at it from the athletic model, I want to be able to maintain my athlete in prime position or prime condition. So I'm going to do things with them and for them that are going to allow them to stay healthy. And I'm also going to then look at the workplace. From a functional design standpoint and [00:54:00] take into consideration the load, the frequency, the mechanics of the lift or the process that they have to go through in order to do that and think about it from a physical standpoint, how do I make this not so much easier, but how do I make this functional for them? Like we talked about function from a transition to function instead of looking at it from a pain standpoint. If I look at a job task from a how does the function of the job task fit in with the general function of a human being, I'm going to be much better suited to prevent injuries across the board than if I just look at it. From how many widgets do I get in the bucket at the end of the day or how many words can I type? I mean, you think about that from the perspective of typing. And when we went from an administrative assistant working, taking notes, handwritten notes to working on the typewriter, [00:55:00] which you had to take a break and move the carriage over to one side or the other, to an electric typewriter, to now a word processor. And we're seeing many, many, many more repetitive motion carpal tunnel type injuries from that perspective because technology changed. But we didn't look at how the function of the technology would affect the function of the human or interact with the function of the human. And I think that's a really key thing to consider as an employer. As I look at my business from an athletic training standpoint or look at my workers as athletes, if I have that perspective, it is like you said, it's a win going forward. Al Brown: [00:55:41] When I had the typewriter at least I had to go find the White-Out occasionally, you know, occasionally have to leave the desk. Now you just hit delete, you know, or backspace, so less movement, so different, different sort of problems, you know, set of problems. Clayton Cartwright: [00:55:56] And I think that's you know, I think that's a good thing to do, [00:56:00] to say it's a constant process. You know, like you said, as things change, there's going to be a new set of issues that pop up. So I guess the best way to say it would be, you know, you don't want people to think that they get to a spot where they say, yes, we've done it. You know, it's just when they fix one thing, the next issue's going to pop up. So it's that constant, you know, just awareness and observation and, you know, being aware of your injuries, to be able to make those corrections, you know, as they come up. Peter Koch: [00:56:31] Now that's great. And again, that fits in with the athletic standpoint of the worker, too, because and you think about it from your PT standpoint or your athletic training experience if someone comes to you either with an injury or a goal. Right. Here's my goal. I want to get from where I am right now to better function where I want to be. They're going to at some point in time, plateau. They're going to reach a point where they're not going to get any better unless you change something in their treatment path. So [00:57:00] that's I see that as a the same way, just as what you said, in that you can't just rest on your laurels and think you've succeeded. You have to have a constant process of reevaluation to see if you're really meeting those goals, because those are some of those injuries, like repetitive motion injuries or overuse injuries will sneak right up on you, like something odd will change in the process. And it might even just be a personality on the line. Like someone within the line or someone within the process will understand the process in a certain way, which will affect people down the road a little bit further. And it will change how they interact with the product or how they interact with the process, which could put them at a greater risk of injury. Peter Koch: [00:57:46] So if you don't have a continual analysis program to address issues or injuries or potential problems that come up in the workplace, you're going to miss it and you're going to rest on your laurels. And then you're going to look back some [00:58:00] day and go, wow, how did we get to where we are now? How do we get all these injuries? How did we get there? And so that I think looking at the worker as an athlete is a great way of helping prevent some of that, because it does it doesn't treat both the employer and the employee to have the best conditioned workplace as possible and to be the best worker as possible in order to achieve the goal that we want to have to be successful as an employer and to be successful as an employee. Excellent. All right, so we are getting that was a quick hour, we're we are getting right to the end of our podcast here, unbelievably so. Anything else you guys want to add about how looking at a worker as an industrial athlete can be beneficial to the employer? Al Brown: [00:58:48] I might just add, you know, and when we look at athletics, sports have been vetted. You know, I've had people that said I can't believe he's out bowling. Here's an injured worker, [00:59:00] he's out bowling and I'm going bowling exists. And people have learned how to bowl and use good body technique and probably can tolerate bowling because they're using good body mechanics. And if you probably look back at their job, they probably use lousy body mechanics, and that's probably what got him into trouble. So don't you know diss among the fact that they might be out doing something physical, particularly a sport, because a lot of times sports. We have worked the process enough that we've learned, you know, good body technique, it's when we get out of position that we get hurt, it's when we twist and we get hurt. But like skiing, you know, if you're good at skiing, you stay in control. You know, the proper technique so you don't get hurt. Sometimes we don't do that at work. You know, we and if you understand some of the human limits, you know, some of the basics, for example, in manual material handling, don't put it on the floor and don't put it above shoulder, but keep it between your knees [01:00:00] and your shoulder over just below shoulder level and keep it at about 35 pounds. The human limit. Yeah, we can lift hundreds of pounds, 100 pounds. We can deadlift all but the you know, we look at the formulas in the world of ergonomics and math and human physiology. We go 50 pounds. That's everybody should be able to handle 50 pounds. Al Brown: [01:00:16] Well, that's not true. It's probably more around thirty five pounds. And that's again, where you tend to put that thing. So, you know, when we look at human beings and we're looking for just general guidelines and we're looking at the you know, as an athlete, where do we kind of start looking and then and then from there design and create. Because again, if those things are exceeding the human limits, that's when we begin to create the injuries. Sports, we tend to know what the you know, the extremes are and what the limits are and what injuries we might anticipate. But in the work industry, we don't think of people as athletes or we don't sometimes think of their physiology [01:01:00] and we expose them to those risks and hazards. So we have to start thinking in more of a sports medicine model, how do we look at that job, make it fit specific capabilities of the human being that's actually there, and then help them with recovery and understanding or how to prepare for the day? Might be warm yourself up to stretch if it's going to be. I know we work with an oil company now in Maine and every one of their workers, when they get out of the truck, they step down and they do three sort of prep stretches to reset their body. Then they deliver the oil and every delivery, same thing, three stretches before they start. So that's forward thinking by an industry and taking those steps to kind of reduce those injuries, taking that sports medicine model. Clayton Cartwright: [01:01:48] And, you know, I'll just kind of throw in there as well. You know, we tend to look at a sport, you know, say football. Every athlete, you know, is different. You [01:02:00] know, even though human bodies, you know, we're all very similar. But there are still some structural changes or differences. I would say changes, but there are structural differences that we all have. You know, a big one is in the hip. You know, the hip socket may be positioned a little different for somebody. So from a bending, you know, when they do need to do something, you know, that technique may be different. So it's, again, taking it from a broad perspective, you know, looking at a sport or an industry, but still trying to maintain focus on your work force and or as an athlete, as individuals. You know, you still have to tease out those individual differences. And so, you know that from that athletic training background and perspective, you know, I think that is a point to make. You still would want to make sure that you're looking at each person at their own level. Al Brown: [01:02:56] And, you know, it's just real quick. I just thought of this a cool crossover that [01:03:00] I've seen recently, you know, talking about athletes and workers. I have a lot of you know, back when I was at iron works, they handed out only male large gloves no matter what your size. And so if you took someone who was a small person or a female worker, that might be fifth percentile and you give them a male large glove. They've already lost 20 percent of their grip just because of it's a glove. Now, you put on an excessively large glove and they probably lose half, if not three quarters of their ability to grip. And if you look at sports today, soccer, football with their hands, not so much basketball. What are they wearing? Gloves, and you see these gloves, you see these fantastic catches, now they can just grab one handed. Well, there's a lot of application of that with an industry where we're now taking those sports clubs and applying them to jobs in the industry where they need a good grip and [01:04:00] a comfortable grip. And we're finding that there's crossover, which is pretty cool. So you get to see that sort of connection that some of those tools that work for them also works for the industrial athlete. Clayton Cartwright: [01:04:12] You know, I think this is a great conversation, too, is sometimes just the awareness piece of it, you know, just having this conversation today, is it? It might be a light bulb for that person, like, oh, I never thought about it that way, you know, but to bring up our experiences and what we have seen and those comparisons, you know, maybe it'll change the viewpoint out there for some of our listeners. So, you know, I just think that awareness piece is also is pretty huge. Peter Koch: [01:04:39] Yeah, it is huge. And it really helps us to move. And I think to your point, Clayton, in the light bulb of not seeing the industry as just industry, but seeing that crossover between the person as an athlete and the person as a worker being combined, and some of the tools that you might find are functional [01:05:00] or at least concepts that you find are functional and sports can really be functional within the within the workplace. And going back to your point, Al, thinking about the oil company, they're stretching and warming up. Right. That's been part of athletics for just about ever, that you're going to have some sort of warm up process before physical activity and that's now or has moved into industry. But I think, you know, it waxes and wanes, but there is benefit to if you're going to do it right and if you're going to target correctly the functional parts of the body with the stretch, it's going to be going to be very beneficial. So there's a lot of learning that you could have from seeing your employee as an athlete and taking some learnings from the athletic world. Pretty cool. Al Brown: [01:05:52] Yeah, we do a lot of with the stretching program, I sometimes feel get pushed back because they go there's no research that supports that. And I said a lot of [01:06:00] times the research is showing gains in flexibility. And I said a lot of times you're not going to get that because we can't do a really, you know, a really dedicated stretch program. But think of stretching and movement within industry as resetting the body in the world of gravity so that just that might be slightly bulging backwards. And you do some back extensions we’re actually resetting the body. We're not necessarily improving it, but we're trying to reset it back where it was or renourishment, you know, bring blood flow back into the neck and shoulders just to change and filter things out. So it's a reset. And once folks get that understanding, they go, oh, and then they can they'll see a reduction in injury simply because they're spending time resetting folks that need that resetting. Clayton Cartwright: [01:06:53] And so something that kind of sticks out in my mind and one of my mentors would always tell me was [01:07:00] and I would say this all the time, motion is lotion. You know, the human the human body, the human body is designed to move. The body wants to move. And that's how, again, we nourish our joints and lubricate things and keep movement. So that is something that's always stuck with me. And that's something that I live by, you know, in my own personal life, you know, from a from a health and fitness perspective. So motion is lotion. I think it's that's a crucial thing to understand to in the workforce. Peter Koch: [01:07:33] That's awesome. I like it. That has t shirt written all over it. I think that Al Brown: [01:07:39] Motion is lotion. Peter Koch: [01:07:46] So as we come to a close here, I just want to throw this out to you both and sort of in your in your history, as you as you reflect back on what you've done in your career or different careers and now where you are with MEMIC [01:08:00] and working specifically in an industry, helping workers stay safe and helping employers keep their employees from being injured. What do you know now that you wish you had known when you started out that might have had changed things for you on the way? Clayton Cartwright: [01:08:17] So for me, I really think that communication piece, you know, the things that we say very early on, you know, can really help set us up for success or it can set us up for a little bit of a failure if we're not using our words in a manner that's going to help set somebody up. Right. So, you know, I think that piece of communication really stands out to me and something that I really try to focus on when I'm even now at MEMIC, you know, when I'm talking to our policyholders, how are we communicating with them and making helping them to understand just how important some [01:09:00] of these concepts are. So definitely for me, it's the communication piece. Peter Koch: [01:09:05] And I definitely took that away today from our conversation that that was an aha moment for me going back. I can see where I could have used that innumerable times, talking with someone from a functional standpoint instead of a pain management standpoint that could really have changed the trajectory, early trajectory of an injury. So for me, I just learned that today. So that was pretty cool. Al, how about you? Al Brown: [01:09:29] You know, I speculated about the proactive approach back when I was young and thought it was the right way, and I feel like that's been validated over my years, that, in fact, it was a system that was created probably from that athletic training world. And as I've gone into the physical therapy world, have always stayed on the proactive side, the functional approach, and have found it very valuable. And probably the most recent [01:10:00] lesson I have learned probably over the last 10 years is that I need to be I maybe wasn't as cognizant of it back then, only because I wasn't. But now that I am older, that physiologically we do change and we don't stay forever young. So, you know, in Maine, you know, we have an older workforce. We're actually the oldest workforce in the nation. And if you look at the demographics across the country, we have a shift towards an increase in those baby boomers reaching their 60s and up. And in the work world, workaday world, you know, we're not all we're not all Tom Brady's and can be, you know, at the peak performance at forty three. You know, we have a lot of workers that are in their 60s that we have to be aware of those comorbidities, those aches and pains that are, as Clayton had talked about, the degenerative disease. And as my response to people was, [01:11:00] if you didn't have any, you must be a genetic freak. And we have to be cognizant of that when we look at design. And so I probably was not as aware of that when I was younger simply because I thought, I don't hurt, I'm fine. But now that I've gotten to this age, I do what I feel are all the right things. But I still ache in the morning when I wake up. And that's just part of sort of the natural aging process. And you have to respect it, understand it and keep it in mind when you're dealing with a workforce. Peter Koch: [01:11:32] Cool communication progression and motion is lotion, I think those are three key principles we need to take away from today, so that's awesome. All right. So thanks. Thanks for being here, guys. I really appreciate sharing your insight and your expertise with myself and our listeners today. So thanks for being here. Clayton Cartwright: [01:11:50] Yeah, great. It was an awesome conversation. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk with you today, both of you. Peter Koch: [01:11:56] Right on Clayton. And we'll have you back for sure. Al Brown: [01:11:58] He knows it was awesome. Great. [01:12:00] You know, and I and I didn't realize until today that looking at Clayton was like looking into a mirror, you know, but about 10 or 15 years younger. But I didn't realize he had so many common experiences that I've had. So it's pretty cool to kind of, you know, here we are colleagues now and learning those things. But you know what? Every day I hope to learn something. And today I did. Peter Koch: [01:12:24] There you go. And it just goes to show like that communication, that shared experience. One last piece, like if you think about it from and you think about the worker as an athlete, the athlete doesn't stand alone. They have a lot of people that work with them in order to help them be successful. And as an industrial athlete, you look at your workers and who are the resources that you can tie into. So can you tie into can you tie into someone from the outside, whether that be MEMIC as your insurance carrier or a provider that you can help bring in to assess your workplace? Or maybe there's some expertise right within your own business, [01:13:00] some colleagues that you have that can bring some insight into a particular engineering challenge that you're having to address, an exposure that your employees are getting to. So great learning that we all had today. And communication progression. Motion is lotion. Love it. That's awesome. So Al and Clay in both. Well, I'll throw this to you, Al, because you might know better. So where can our listeners find out more about the industrial athlete at MEMIC? Al Brown: [01:13:28] Yes, as a policyholder you certainly can hit the safety director and you just have to register because we have some references sort of behind the safety director web. And you can access a lot of the information that we've talked about today. If you're a policyholder and you work with a safety consultant. One of our safety consultants, you can reach out to them. You always have access to us. And I say us. It's the ergonomics department with that industrial sports medicine hat that we wear through [01:14:00] E Ergo and which can be a virtual assessment of workstations. So we have a lot of tools and resources that are available. The one thing about MEMIC is I think we really one thing I enjoy about my job, I can't speak for, you know, Clayton and you Pete, but we get to partner with industry all the time. And, you know, I like to think of us as partners when we walk into an industry so, you know, take advantage of those services that we have, because with these kinds of past experiences, a lot of times you can bring a different set of eyes. So look to the safety director, look to your safety consultants, look to us, and we might be able to help you out for sure. Peter Koch: [01:14:42] And I can see Clayton shaking his head and I'm shaking my head to that. Yeah, the part of the part of the thing that I know I enjoy and in my conversations with Clayton is, is that partnership. So please, if you're a policyholder, reach out. And if you're not a policyholder and you're looking for some information, then MEMIC has some free resources that you can find [01:15:00] right at MEMIC.com that you can jump right in there under workplace safety and you can find some great resources that you might be able to pull in and use within your workplace. So thanks again, Al and Clayton, for joining us today. And to all of our listeners out there today on the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, we've been speaking about the industrial athlete with Al Brown and Clayton Cartwright. If you have any questions for Al or Clayton or. We'd like to hear more about a particular topic on our podcast. Email me at podcast@ MEMIC.com. Also, check out our show notes at MEMIC.com/podcast, where you can find additional resources, links to other podcasts and our entire podcast archive. And while you're there, sign up for our Safety Net blog so you never miss any of our articles or safety news updates. And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you took a minute or two to review us on Stitcher, iTunes or whichever podcast service that you found us on. If you've already done that, thanks, because it really [01:16:00] helps us spread the word. Please consider sharing the show with a business associate friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. And as always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Peter Koch reminding you that listening to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast is good, but using what you learned here is even better.