Chainsaw Safety Tips and Training with Andy Wood

Chainsaw safety is more than just a pair of chaps and safety glasses. The PPE is only there to help reduce the effect of the mistake you make. To be a competent sawyer or to consistently use a chainsaw safely takes knowledge of the tool, the tree, and the environment.  These combined with good body position, control of the saw, and saw maintenance can delver quality and productivity when you are working in the woods or in your yard. In this episode, I speak with Andy Wood, manager of Forest Products here at MEMIC about history of chainsaw and logging safety in the North East, how the industry has changed and different best practices that should be in place for any business, not just logging, that has someone running a chainsaw.   Peter Koch: Hello, listeners, and welcome to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast, I'm your host, Peter Koch. And today, again, we're recording from the studios of Portland Pod. They've got a full-service podcast, recording and production studio right here in South Portland, Maine. And if this podcast sounds good to you. Get a hold of Tanner down at Portland Pod. You might think that while chainsaw safety is important, it really doesn't apply to you or the company that you work for because you're not a logger or an arborist or in another forest products industry where folks use chainsaws every day. Well, don't skip this episode because chain saws are everywhere. If you have green space on your property and a maintenance group, chances are that there's a chainsaw in the shop or under your workbench. And even if you don't officially have one, someone on your team probably does. And it might have come out to expedite a project or to clean up after a storm at your workplace. So to address some [00:01:00] of those things, I'm with in the studio today with Andy Wood, safety management consultant for the forest products industry here at MEMIC. And we're going to lay out the reasoning for why chainsaw safety isn't just for loggers, arborist or property management teams. And in this episode, we'll talk about how chain saws have entered the workplace, steps that you or your team can take to assess the chainsaw uses at your company and how we help chainsaw users at any level maintain safe work practices in the field. So, Andy, welcome to the podcast today. Andy Wood: Well, thanks, Pete. It's great to be here. I think we both have a lot of experience we can share with our listeners that hope that they can learn the lessons the easy way rather than the hard way that we have in the forest products industry. Peter Koch: Yeah, totally. Like we've had many conversations over the years between the businesses that I work with in hospitality and the recreation field and certainly all the work that you've done in the forest products industry here at MEMIC. But even prior to you coming to MEMIC, you've had a lot of experience within the [00:02:00] forest products industry. So before we really get into it, tell me a little bit about your background and your history. Andy Wood: Sure. Right out of college, it came out of college with a degree in forest management and went right into the Maine Northwoods to work as a production woodcutter, really liked being on the production side of forestry and lived up, you know, up north, lived in the logging camps up along the Canadian border for 11 years, worked up there as a production woodcutter, started my own logging company towards the end, and then got involved with training when our first logger state training program, certified logging professional program started. And then when MEMIC was formed in 1993, I was asked to come and work with their book of business in the logging industry. Peter Koch: Right on. So you've got history not on the insurance side, but you came like a lot of us here at MEMIC. You've actually come from the industry that you serve now on the insurance side. So you bring a lot of practical experience and have seen a lot of changes within the industry itself. So before we get into some of [00:03:00] that, let's talk about the real reason why we're here to talk about chainsaw safety. And let's think about the hazards that the chainsaw poses and some of the things that happen when you're in the field using a chainsaw and injuries occur. So what are some of the things that we need to worry about from an injury standpoint? What are the common injuries that come out from chainsaw use? Andy Wood: Sure. Well, one of the first breakdowns, you know, as a safety consultant we do on injuries is frequency and severity. And the injuries that we see the most are not really specific to the chainsaw. They're really across the board that a lot of different industries will see. So slips, trips and falls and overexertion. So that would be your back shoulder arms, muscles, soft tissue injuries. Those are really the two most common injuries we see and then eye injuries right after that and when we move. So those injuries are happening all the time, not usually life threatening, not usually as severe. We move into the severity side of those. What we see the big injuries are from. And those are a little [00:04:00] more specific to the chainsaw. Those are struck by falling objects, that stuff coming out of the trees, limbs coming out of the trees, being struck by the tree or dead wood falling in the work area or being struck by the chainsaw itself or chainsaw cuts. So those are the severe ones that we have the most serious of. Peter Koch: Sure. And there's a there's fewer of the severe ones, but certainly they're out there. You can see him all the time and then on the news. And then the thing that you might not think a lot about is those frequent injuries, the slip and fall injuries, the overexertion injuries. In our experience, you and I talking about this, you can tie it a lot of those right back to the chainsaw use itself. And it could be fatigue. It could be a tension. It could be a result of improper maintenance, improper skill set, improper training that's causing or contributing to the slip trips and fall or the overexertion. And we'll chat about some of those pieces, too. Andy Wood: Sure. I think, you know, having been a production woodcutter, I don't think the most physically [00:05:00] challenging job that I've ever done, particularly in the summer when it's hot or in the winter when the snow is deep and you're in an environment that's there's a lot of variables out there, you know, ground conditions and the forest, it's ever changing. So, yeah, just having the chainsaw out there is going to drive some of those, whether it's overexertion or slip strips and falls. Yeah, sure. Peter Koch: So let's talk about some of those severe injuries and. By the chain or struck by a falling object, and those can range from cuts and lacerations to fatal injuries, and some of those were actually happened pretty recently here in Maine. Did you want to you said you did a little bit of research on some of those, the severe chainsaw injuries prior to coming here today. So can you talk a little bit about that? Andy Wood: Sure. I'll go back historically for the logging production loggers are our most fatal situation there was struck by during the felling process. So as soon as the trees started to move, something was coming out of the canopy. You were struck by falling limbs, falling dead wood. You might be struck by the [00:06:00] tree itself or struck by the tree after it bounces off the ground. So that was our number one cause of a fatality. And while we've moved away from that pretty substantially with the logging population, we did have actually three fatalities this past year in Maine, all during chainsaw tree removal process. And the limited knowledge that we have, we didn't get to do really detailed background investigations. But based on what the state troopers put out in the media; they are very similar. They are all people. All three of these folks were struck by the tree that they were cutting and died as a result of it. So we're still having some of those big injuries. Peter Koch: And where were those fatalities? They happened to people that were actually working in the logging industry or these sort of ancillary tasks that they were doing from a different industry. Andy Wood: So they were production woodcutters. They were kind of, I would say, on the fringe. They were people who did use the chainsaw regularly and they were being paid to cut wood, [00:07:00] but you wouldn't call them production woodcutters. And that's really where we see chainsaw operation today. Not so much with the production chainsaw operator, but, you know, one was an excavator, so and he was doing site prep, you know, house lots. So he cuts a little bit of wood and then does the excavation for that. So he's in a chainsaw off and on regularly. One was a homeowner, the other two were kind of part time woodcutters. And so that's really the trend. We see a lot of the big injuries we've had and these recent fatalities were for people on the fringe of the industry. Peter Koch: Right. So we're not actually seeing the same type of severity coming out of the logging industry. And we'll talk a little bit about why that happened. But we're seeing some of the more serious injuries coming out of, like you said, those the fringe industries. So it's people that will be using a chainsaw on an ancillary basis. Might be once a week. It could be once a day. But it's not day in, day out every day, every week, throughout the entire season, like you would if you were a production woodcutter or working in the forest products [00:08:00] industry all the time. Andy Wood: Oh, that's exactly right. You know, in the early days with my time at MEMIC, if an injury involved chainsaws in trees, that would usually come my way. And they were all production woodcutters. You know, later in the 90s, I started to see kind of a transition injuries, wood, chainsaw, tree and type injuries would come across my desk and they wouldn't be loggers, they would be campground people or ski people that are all using chainsaws, as these people were, but not full time production woodcutters. Yeah. Peter Koch: So what caused that that shift? What caused the shift from seeing the injuries moving from your full-time production logging staff or your logging companies to the businesses that aren't typically considered chainsaw users? Andy Wood: Well, there's kind of a few things that happened in tandem throughout the 90s. We did see substantial mechanization of the forest products industry. So production logging. We had people running chainsaws on the ground and extracting [00:09:00] the wood with cable skaters. Everyone was out on the ground. Everyone was exposed. We've pretty much mechanized probably to, you know, maybe 95 percent of the wood in the state of Maine today is cut with machines, heavy equipment. So our loggers are all heavy equipment operators. So their exposures still some exposures in the cabs of the machine, but not the traumatic injuries that we saw with chainsaw operators. So in the forest products industry, a lot of those have transitioned into equipment. So those injuries are down. At the same time, we've seen a lot of things that have created, I think, a greater chainsaw use for all the ancillary while the other job descriptions out there, all the other people who were running chainsaws, I was just part of their job description. Peter Koch: Before we move off that and talk about the ancillary stuff, what's another what would you say is another contributor, not just the mechanization to the reduction of chainsaw injuries in the logging industry. Andy Wood: So we back in the late 80s, early 90s, the industry realized that it couldn't continue going [00:10:00] the way it was, you know, wasn't acceptable to have people in the hospital anymore. We couldn't get replacement workers. The cost of doing that, the cost of comp rose substantially. It was being it was cost prohibitive to run a legitimate business. So the industry had got together and created the certified logging professional program and rolled out a lot of training, a lot of formalized training for loggers and. I think we'll talk about that a little bit more, but that definitely that formalized training definitely drove the injury rates down. So we had a drop in the total number of injuries that we saw because we had fewer people out there. That doesn't mean people are any safer. If we look at different ways. You could look at this and some of the ratios or workers comp, for example, you know, it's based on per man hour worked. That would give you a better idea of the fact that the people after the training for the number of people that are out there, they're actually working quite a bit safer. So we had a worker’s comp rate that was pushing 50 cents on a dollar. And now the worker's comp rate for [00:11:00] chainsaw operators for logger's is in the teens. And it's been in the teens for probably 12 or 15 years. So that's a pretty substantial reduction for the guys that are still out there. Peter Koch: Yeah, and that's a like you said, it's a combination of fewer man hours. But still, with the training people actually changing the methods that they were using to manually fell a tree. So you get the mechanization that's helped to reduce the overall fatalities that are there, but also the training that's there and really the training, as we've discussed in the past, the training wasn't always designed from a safety standpoint, although it's been used that way. But really it was originally brought into play from a production standpoint. Is that some of the history around the training as well? Andy Wood: Well, yeah, the methods that we use really kind of interesting. You know, our tools have changed. We started out with a crosscut and  an ax. Peter Koch: You are old, Andy, I tell you. Andy Wood: And when we got power saws, we just kept doing the same thing we did with the crosscut an axe. Peter Koch: That's true. Andy Wood: And there's really [00:12:00] a lot of better techniques we could have today. We didn't really stop to think that through until we got some formal training and some guys tried some different things and they worked better. And then they started with the formal training. They started spreading that around so we could all learn from that. Yeah, it's quite a difference. And before I think one thing that the training has given our industry is we're a little more cohesive and we talk a lot more communication within the industry is better. So we know what works and we know what works well and we know how that how the mechanics of the stunt work. We never stop to think about that before. Peter Koch: No, it's a great way for what I've learned, especially from taking classes with you and then going on and doing some of my own training with my own accounts is that you can look at an injury, you can go into the field and you get the injury report, go back into the field and you could talk to the operator, talk to the people that were working with them, look at the stump and pretty much figure out what went wrong, what skill or what process wasn't followed all the way through to make [00:13:00] the situation occur that caused the injury. So it's a pretty neat way from an accident analysis standpoint. And then going forward, being able to address the specifics of the cause, whether it's on maintenance or whether it's information before felling or separation of operation, any of those parts and pieces can be looked at to determine whether or not or what we have to work on in order to prevent this from happening again. Andy Wood: Really kind of interesting. A lot of variables in the woods, you know, the weather and the tree conditions and the time of year that you're cutting. And I used to think there was a lot of things that were beyond your control and some days what things would work well and some days things wouldn't. You know, after I took the training myself and really committed to adopting it, I was amazed how much more control I had over my work environment. Now, there's still a few variables out there, but very, very much more predictable than I thought it was in the beginning. And one of the interesting things I worked with the labor consultant out of Sweden, Soren Ericsson. He [00:14:00] was big on being able to predict everything that would happen. He would take all kinds of information. And he said when someone starts doing something, I can tell you exactly how it's going to turn out. And it was amazing how accurately he could predict things that were going to have both good and bad. And as we go through the training, you know, we have a certain protocol that we go through. You mentioned doing follow up on injuries, accident investigations. It is you can go back to the training and look at the protocol, the steps that we go through, and you can usually tell exactly why that injury happened and probably even predict that it was going to. Peter Koch: Yeah, so it's really interesting, all this training is happening around the logging side to help them with production and then to help them with safety, but it really didn't trickle down to the other industries that end up using the chainsaw. And that's really why we're here today, though not so much talk about why loggers need this process to be safe, but really it's all the other people. So let's talk a little bit more about what's driving chainsaw use into the other the other [00:15:00] industries. So, like you said, we're logging is becoming more mechanized. We have hand crews out there, but we're still finding chainsaw injuries. We talked about those different fatalities. There was really one individual there that was really working in the forest products industry. The other two, one was a homeowner, one was a construction worker. And those types of industries were finding chainsaw use happening all the time. And I know you and I have had this conversation that you would end up going to another company, not a logging company, but you would go to a camp or I would go to a ski area or you'd go to a property management company or anybody that has a maintenance group or even a hotel. And you would find that someone there was using a chainsaw, someone had a chainsaw under a bench someplace that was their own. Or maybe the company bought it a long time ago. And it gets pulled out every fall or every spring to do storm cleanup or winter cleanup. Or maybe they're creating [00:16:00] they're creating trail access around their property for guests when they come because they want to have a more deeper connection with nature. So we're finding a lot of these happening, like there's more chainsaw use than we know in industries that were never really thought of to use a chainsaw. Andy Wood: Going back to the early days when we were doing training, of course, our focus was on production loggers. One of the more interesting trainings we had a yacht company here on the coast of Maine request chainsaw training. And What are those guys doing with a chainsaw. Well, you know, they pull all the boats out of the water in the fall and they put them up on eight by eight cribbing. So, yeah, they weren't cutting trees down, but they're using their chainsaws to cut these cribbing into these eight by eight timbers into certain lengths to keep all the blocks up for summer for winter storage and maintenance. So they had chainsaws and they were using them regularly in the fall when they're hauling the boats. So that was kind of an odd application. But yeah, that chainsaws are really show up everywhere. The first shot over the [00:17:00] bow that we knew something was changing was the ice storm of 1998 after the ice storm of 98. There were a lot of injuries doing storm cleanup. Everybody was a chainsaw operator for several months after that. You could not in the state of Maine for a period of time. You cannot buy a chainsaw because they couldn't ship them here fast enough. So everybody that had property, every, you know, everybody that had a tree in the front yard of the backyard, they were getting their chainsaw out to do storm damage cleanup. And that's one of the most hazardous applications, because not only do you have the tree and the chainsaw, but you have all that energy that's been twisted into that tree, by the weight of the ice and snow or the wind that brought it down. So, yeah. And then so that was the first time we saw people actually outside of the logging industry calling us and requesting chainsaw training. We did have a lot of injuries around the state and a couple of fatalities doing storm damage cleanup after that first big ice storm. And then since then, we've had a lot of you know, for the Northeast. We actually had a couple of hurricanes, Hurricane [00:18:00] Irene and Hurricane Sandy. You know, we didn't see a lot of hurricanes in the past, but the weather patterns have gotten a lot more severe, whether it's wind or ice floating or flooding. And those cleanups always bring out chainsaws. So that's just the changes in weather has been one of the driving factors to get more chainsaw operation out there in non logging industries. Peter Koch: Sure. And you're not always bringing an operator, a chainsaw operator, someone who's come from the logging industry to do your storm cleanup or to do your trail construction or to do any of the chainsaw tasks that you have. And, you know, frankly, if you grew up in New England or if you grew up any place where you had property, you maybe your father, your grandfather or someone in your family would have a chainsaw and you would learn to use the chainsaw from them. Not really formal training. So you tend to bring those skills that you've had from experience or maybe your first experience [00:19:00] was at the workplace and someone said, hey, you look like you can handle a chainsaw here, go ahead and cut that firewood in the pile. And interestingly, whether the trees standing up or the trees cut in a pile someplace, the dynamics of the saw are the same. You might not have the same energy that you have with a standing tree or storm damage tree, but the dynamics are the same. So understanding a lot of that and how it functions can help keep you safe. Whether you're cutting firewood in the pile, you're just cutting a few pieces of wood, you're cutting a couple limbs off a tree, or you're dealing with twisted, gnarly storm damaged trees from a hurricane or a tornado or an ice storm. Andy Wood: Absolutely. And I have to just take one step back and offer a warning to our listeners. The whole thing about experience, depending on where you got that experience, you can have two types of experience. You can have good and you can have bad experience. And if [00:20:00] you're not involved with an industry who talks about that all the time, you might not recognize right up front whether you're having good experiences or bad experiences. So sometimes people who when at a particular company, someone needs to do a task with a chainsaw and you have someone I'm comfortable with, a chainsaw, they may be comfortable, but their skill set may not be they may have experiences that were successful but are going to turn south pretty quick. Peter Koch: Sure. I'm right in there. I mean, I was never formally trained. I've never worked in the forest products industry like yourself, but I've had a lot of experience with a chainsaw, some of it coming from property management on my own side at my own house and others coming from work. Actually in the recreation industry having to use a chainsaw to do cleanup and given some training, but not real formal training. And when my eyes got opened after taking my first training with you, looking at yeah, I was comfortable [00:21:00] with the saw, I could accomplish the task. But only for luck did I not get injured with the chainsaw many of the times that I was cutting in the woods or cutting on the pile, and I never realized that because my experience, while successful, wasn't actually good. So I didn't have great experience. I had successful experience, but didn't have good experience because I wasn't using the saw actually in the way it was truly designed and not working with it in ways that help keep me safe. Andy Wood: Yeah, and I think in the forest products industry, you know, for production loggers, we really learned a lot. We learned the same way. You know, I had cut wood for a lot of years before I had formal training. And they sat down and explained to us exactly how that stump works. What are the mechanics of the stump? How does that hinge control the direction of the stump, a direction of the tree or filing? No one ever. I mean, I know you put the file across the tooth and it got better after you'd filed it than before [00:22:00] it was filed, after you doubled it. But I really didn't know what was going on until someone sat me down and said, this is the way the tooth works. This is the way it works to create a chip and this is the way you need to maintain it. You know, my life got so much easier, even though I thought I was a good production worker, my life got so much easier. When someone explains some of those basic things to me, I'll never forget a time. This was after I was doing training myself for MEMIC and I had a group of woodcutters up in northern Maine and there was a couple of brothers there and in a small community of production logging community. And these guys were looked up to as being one of the biggest production crew, you know, in the area. And they did. They worked hard and they put out a lot of wood. And we're in the training and we were introducing the Borca, something that we really had never done until someone in formal training showed us how it worked and the benefits of it. And when I cut into that tree, the guys stood there, you know, their jaws dropped down and they just stared. And [00:23:00] I'll never forget, one brother walked over and he whacked his brother and he said, How come we never thought of that? We've been cutting, what, for 30 years? That makes so much sense. How come we never thought of that? You know, and it was interesting to think that these guys were production woodcutters and, you know, they were well respected. And it's just something until someone explains that to you, you're not going to figure it out on your own. Peter Koch: Right. And it overall, it's a pretty complicated tool when you actually understand how it works. And there's a lot to how that saw tooth creates a chip in the relationship to that and the mechanics of the stump. And that was one of the aha moments that I had with training with you, as well as the not just the need for PPE, but the need for planning your cut and all of the other parts that go with it. And when all those pieces are in place, the there's still an opportunity for injury and failure there, but it's a lot more controllable and you can be more successful that way. So there's a lot of aha moments when we start talking about training and how when [00:24:00] people's eyes are opened through explanation, it really helps connect some dots for them. Andy Wood: Yeah, the chainsaw is a very unforgiving tool and there are a lot of variables out there. If you look at all the other tools that you have, you know, you have your skill saws, you know, they have electric breaks on and they have guards that come over that spring back over the saw your table saws guarded. You have got the saw stop. There's a if you look at the chain side, something you pick up and walk around with in your hand and the bars expose the whole time, it is kind of a hazardous tool. So we want to have as much control over our work environment as we can because it is the hazard. You know, it's never going to go away when you're running a chainsaw or. Peter Koch: Let's take a quick break so I can share a brief story about the safety experts podcast. I'm your host, Peter Koch, and one of MEMIC's team of more than 40 safety professionals who spend our days doing what MEMIC was created to do, helping to make the places we all work safer and better. We do this by working alongside employers to improve their safety culture [00:25:00] without compromising and in most cases, even improving. Quality and productivity is one thing that makes us good at what we do is our team here, our policyholders don't work with just one safety consultant because each of us has the rest of the team there for support. So what happens when you get a team of safety experts together who are passionate about what they do? They share their expert information, their unique perspectives and their industry experience. And it all works together to help grow a solution for a problem. Sometimes we totally geek out about safety and the content and all those safety experts brains, but we realize that it's not just the information that makes the difference in the real world. It was the conversation, connection and shared experience that makes the difference. And that brings us to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast. The Safety Experts podcast helps to bring that expert conversation right to. You need some guidance with topics like confined spaces, driving, fall protection office ergonomics or even safety [00:26:00] leadership. Then listen to our podcast we've got. Dedicated it to discussing describing and even debating workplace safety across all industries and applications with industry leaders, top executives and safety experts here at MEMIC. If you're interested in hearing more discussion, interesting solutions and personal stories on workplace safety. Then check out more episodes of the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast that MEMIC.com/podcast. Or check us out on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe. Now let's get back to today's conversation. Peter Koch: So let's talk about how the challenges or how the hazards and exposures for using a chainsaw are controlled. And let's start a little bit about we'll start at the bottom of our hour control hierarchy and we'll talk about PPE, for example. So when you're using a chainsaw, what are the different ways [00:27:00] or what are the different PPE pieces that you need and what goes into making sure you have the right PPE for a chainsaw use? Andy Wood: Right. So, you know, in the training, we start out with our initial training, our intro with PPE. The big thing to keep in mind is PPE does not eliminate a hazard. It's going to help mitigate the hazard if something goes wrong. But it's not going to eliminate a hazard. It's important that, you know, we look at no matter what type of PPE we're looking at, we need to know that it met the industry standard. So everything you have out there is rated by somebody, your microwave, your chainsaw, the seat belt in your car. Somebody does testing on those. So we want to know that the PPE that you have meets the industry standards. We need to know that it's in serviceable condition. Is it still in good enough condition to work the way it was designed to? And then we need to know that you are using it consistently and properly in the field all the time. Peter Koch: So that makes total sense. So those are the three conditional parts is when it's certified to it's in serviceable condition [00:28:00] and three, that it's being used. And part of that is making sure that it fits correctly. So those are the three things that are common across any piece of personal protective equipment that you're required to use. So let's talk about the different PPE or just list the different PPE that's required for chainsaw use. Andy Wood: Right. So if we start right down at your feet, of course, safety boots, the logging standard would say that they are steel toe and they're actually have cut resistance, leg protection. You can wear the chaps or you can wear the pants. Either way, there's a certain performance standard that they have to meet. Protection for the head hardhats, the eye protection hearing, protection and use of gloves and high viz is not specifically in the logging standard, but it's situational. So a lot of times, depending on what other hazards we might have around us with other pieces of equipment or other people, we need to be seen so high. This is kind of becoming a standard piece of PPE for chainsaw operation as well. Peter Koch: And so you're talking about the high vis vests or whoever's clothing so that [00:29:00] you're able to be seen better by from a distance, whether it be with the crew that you're working with, which I think is pretty key, too, so that they can recognize you. But certainly if you're working in a public space, which a lot of ancillary chainsaw use happens in that the public can notice that there's something going on there as well so that whoever's clothing makes you more visible for sure. Andy Wood: Some of the injuries that we see are someone working with a chainsaw or another tool and creating a hazard for someone else who wanders into their work area. So it's important that at least all the people that are working with you, you can look up and identify them easily before, for example, if you're dropping a tree, when you get ready to release that tree, you need to be able to glance out real quick and see that there is nobody in the drop zone. Peter Koch: Yeah, it's pretty funny. You mentioned that you and I have done some trainings before with different resorts and we're off in the woods in a place that's relatively unpopulated, but the resorts open to the public and it's in the spring or summer time where people are wandering around and you had a bunch of people around with chainsaws, were dropping trees, and then all of a sudden [00:30:00] out of the corner of your eye, as we're preparing to drop the tree, you see someone with a dog that just hiked up the trail and they're curious to see what's going on in there right in your work zone. If you are in high viz and your team is in high viz, you can easily see the people that are working with you, but you don't always see the folks that are coming up to see what's happening in your area. When we talk about personal protective equipment, making sure that what you use indoors is in serviceable condition is pretty key in making sure it meets the standard is is pretty critical. But where we find a lot of failure on PPE is after it's been purchased and been used for a while and for a number of years, that it doesn't stay in good condition, not in serviceable condition. What's the problem with that? Why shouldn't you use a piece of PPE that's not in serviceable condition? Andy Wood: Right. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. Nothing lasts forever as much as we would like it to. One of the things I do is I talk people out of gear that they're wearing that I assume is no longer in serviceable condition. And [00:31:00] sometimes I'll test it myself. And sometimes, you know, I've taken a pair of chaps off, someone put it on a log and just sort it right into pieces. You know, it didn't slow the chainsaw down at all. And when the group sits there and watches that and they realize, wow, that looked like those are chaps and those were designed to be run with a chainsaw. But there we didn't stop to think that they're no longer in serviceable condition. They're just too old. They're matted down with grease and oil or pitch or they've been cut into. So we want to know that the gear that we have can be expected to perform the way it was intended to. So there's a lot of things, whether it's hard hat or chaps are going to take it out. Serviceable condition if it's below that standard. And you continue to use it, you're not going to get the level of protection that you're expecting and realize that nothing is going to stop all the injuries anyways. And if you're starting with something that, you know is compromised, you're just kind of starting with the, you know, one foot in the hole already. Peter Koch: Yeah, that's a really good point. So the industry standards the ANSI standard or, you know, listing [00:32:00] for your equipment states that this piece of PPE meets a minimum standard, whether it's a cut through standard for your resistance or it's a penetration standard for your helmet or your eyeglasses. So there's a minimum there. And like you said, no piece of PPE will protect you from everything. So when you start with a piece of personal protective equipment, that's meets a minimum standard and now you've brought it below the minimum standard through poor maintenance or poor storage or it's been damaged and has protected you once before and now you're putting it back into use again. It's not going to protect you in the same method or same manner. So there's a higher chance that your mistake or your engagement in the hazard is going to cause a bigger injury for you later on if your PPE not in good shape. Andy Wood: And most of the PPE that we have is designed for, you know, it can take one hit, whether it's a hard hat or are leg protection. You know, it's only designed  [00:33:00]fall protection. You know, once you put that to the ultimate test, it really needs to come out of service or needs to be inspected by someone who's qualified to determine whether it's in service condition, the condition of those your PPE changes every day. So it's important that you start every day with an evaluation of the gear that you have your PPE or chainsaw or any of your equipment to make sure it's going to perform as expected. Peter Koch: Perfect. So if you find that it's not in serviceable condition, doesn't meet the standards that the manufacturer sets out for you, which is right on those instructions, pull it out of service and get a new set, even though it might take you a little bit more time to get going in the morning or in the afternoon or get your project going. It's beneficial for you to have a proper piece of PPE. Andy Wood: And I would say just good inspection process can usually predict, you know, the life of a piece of equipment so you can get some spare chaps so you can get a new screen for your hard hat ahead of time. So when you look at that in the morning and finally says, OK, it's not in serviceable condition anymore, you've got some replacement gear ready to ready to roll. Peter Koch: That's a really [00:34:00] good point, to have some spares with you so that inevitably the PPE just won't be in shape. So let's talk a little bit about chain saws. So we've moved in the control hierarchy where we're going from PPE, but we need to consider the condition of the saw itself before we go and put that saw in a piece of wood. So what are some of the things that we need to look for in a saw to make sure that it's appropriate to run that day? Andy Wood: So, of course, the manufacturer in the owner's manual is going to set out standards. The specifics that you need to look for every day, you know, the chainsaw should be in good condition for all the different parts. There are three particularly that are kind of unique to a chainsaw that we look at. These are in the OSHA standard that we're going to look at every day. And that would be the chain break, the chain catch, which is if the chain is broken or thrown off the bar, it's going to minimize the travel distance, hopefully to prevent that chain from being shot off to injure someone else or hitting you. And then the throttle lock, the way the throttle lock works, it just prevents the  [00:35:00]saw from being accelerated unless you have a full grip on the saw. Before we had the throttle lock person walking through the woods with a chainsaw walking through heavy brush, the brush could hit the throttle and it could accelerate it and people would be cut in the legs. Now we have the throttle interlock, so it's a lot safer to use. So those need to be confirmed every day. And again, in your owner's manual, it tells you how to test them. Some of them it's breezy, some of them you have to know a little bit about how they work to test them. So those three need to be confirmed every day because they are wear items and they don't last forever. In addition to the those three, you know, obviously the you know, the on off switch and the guarding, you know, that covers the flywheel and the chain sprocket, those should all be intact. The other big one, and this is probably the most challenging for everybody, because it's hard to figure out. There's only a handful of people that are naturals that can manage it well and it changes every cut you make. This could change. And that is the condition of the chain. Yeah, the sharpness of the chain you've all heard over and over again. [00:36:00] It doesn't matter if it's an axe or, you know, any cutting tool. If it's not sharp, it's dangerous to be with. And the chainsaw can get dull very quickly if it comes in contact with even, you know, just wood that's got a little dirt on it. Or heaven forbid, you know, you hit a rock, hit it in the ground, what you're going to do or occasionally hit a piece of steel that's going to take the saw out of serviceable condition. And you need to have the skill, you know, to get that back first to recognize that it should not go out of the, you know, leave the shop in the morning because it's just going to frustrate you when you get into the field with it. That's an art in itself, sharpening whether you decide to handle yourself or use a guide or just take the train back to the shop and have them do it. Or if you're a bigger facility, maybe someone in-house can manage sharpening just to recognize that it's not in serviceable condition. And stop right there, get another chain sharpen that chain get another sore or go to plan B, because taking a tool that's not in serviceable condition into the field is not going to work well. [00:37:00] Peter Koch: So that's interesting. The three safety features of the saw the throttle lock, the chain break and the chain catch itself were features that I realize were there. And then I learned that they're actually required from the OSHA standard to have on the saws. So that made sense. The big aha moment for me was sharpening and how sharpening affects not just the productivity, but it effects the cut itself, the quality of the cut. It affects your ability as a as a sawyer to maintain good posture all day and less have less fatigue as you go through. Andy Wood: I like to say that, you know, a dull chain will make you hot in the summer and cold in the winter. You know, it's a game you just can't win. And you're absolutely right. Looking at that before you leave the shop, that's your best chance to have good falling conditions. You know, I think filing there's only a handful of people that I've ever run into that were just naturals for that. You know, it's kind of like being an artist. You know, I can barely make a stick figure that people [00:38:00] could recognize. Same thing. There's some people that are naturals at filing and the rest of us all are going to struggle with that. So having as much in our favor as we can in a shop, you've got a to hold the all. You've got good lighting. If you're on a ski area and you take that saw, you go to the far corners of the property and it turns out to be dull. You're going to be frustrated. You're going to have to sit down and sharpen their you know cold wind is blowing down your neck. In the summer the black flies are chewing on your ears. It's just not a good chance to really have good results sharpening. So if you look at it in the morning, you can use the you can either you might have a sharp chain or a new chain in the shop, but you have conditions that, you know, facilitate quality sharpening. Peter Koch: Yeah, it's a really good point. So chainsaw condition overall, making sure that the three safety features are there. Other parts of the saw are actually in shape and working appropriately. And then a good sharp chain are all things that should be checked prior to going out and will help manage the hazards that you have. Because like you said, a dull chain or a [00:39:00] dull saw or an improperly running saw is just going to cause you problems down the road. Andy Wood: And in fact, we encourage people to take sharp chains, spare sharp chains with them depending on the conditions. It's easy to go dull during the day. And if you know, if it just goes a little bit dull, maybe you can touch it up in the field. But if you hit anything, if you hit the dirt, hit a rock or pieces steel further ahead from a production standpoint and a safety standpoint to swap on a sharp chain and get right back into a production mode and take that back to the garage, some rainy afternoon and work on it back there. Peter Koch: Yeah, it's a good point. And sometimes you don't know it for all your experience. I remember one time we were doing a training at a ski area. We actually just felled the tree and we were going to take the stump down. And when we cut into that stump, we actually cut into a rock that the tree had grown around. So it's not even something that you could possibly predict. But in that case, if you didn't have a spare change, you'd spend a half an hour, an hour sharpening that chain because [00:40:00] of all the damage that got done to it just by a second or two touch as you came into that tree. Remember that pretty specific and that. But you weren't happy about that day Andy Wood:  In that specific case I'm not sure that chain ever got sharpened again because there's a limitation, you know, what you can do and some chains are actually going to get completely destroyed. That might have been one that never got sharpened again. Peter Koch: Probably did. It might show up in one of our trainings again at some point in time. Hey, so let's move on a little bit. We've talked about PPE. We've talked about chain saws. Both are. Things like the PPE will help you in the event of a mistake, when you engage the hazard, a good saw will help reduce the possibility of being exposed or getting injured if you have a well maintained saw. But let's talk a little bit about what else can be done to help prevent an injury. So like we discussed work zones a little bit. Can you elaborate a little bit more about what a work zone is and why it's important to set those up at the beginning of your cut? Andy Wood: Managing your work zone is really critical. I think we've seen [00:41:00] more injuries with our non-loggers, a little different environment. They're working and they tend to work with other people. You mentioned the ski areas. There's a lot going on there in areas where there's a lot of other people in logging your work zone. If you're felling a tree, usually a logger is often in the woods by himself or he's with one other person who's driving the skitter. So it's easier to manage that work zone. In that case, the work zone is two tree lengths. So you need to manage everybody who could be within two tree lengths and back in the woods, there's usually nobody in the woods, so you don't have to worry about it quite as much except for when you're skitter operator comes back, you'll have to look out for him. But at the ski areas or the campgrounds, there's a lot of people around or the you know, the power companies, when there's storm damage, there's a lot of people around. It's important that you manage every, you know, anybody that could be impacted by what you're doing. So we've seen with the occasional users a lot more situations where there's going to be groups of people working together and maybe one will have a chainsaw or sometimes two. And, you know, we've [00:42:00] seen the same thing with brush saws. People get too close to each other. You need to look at your work zone for tree felling. OSHA Standards is defined. It's two tree lengths for everything else. The OSHA standard has a paragraph that says, basically, you need to consider if the worst case scenario happens, you need to consider how big of an area could you impact. And you need to manage everybody in that area or preferably just get them out in. The best option is always to get them out. Now, some jobs, there might be someone in your work zone, but they need to be paying attention to what you're doing. You can't have two people in the same work zone doing two different things. So look at what the hazard might be if you're cutting a tree, obviously, the tree could fall. And the reason for the two tree lengths is and we've actually had a fatality with this, a tree could hit a dead tree out at three quarters of its length and then the dead tree falls over. And so you're getting to tree lengths away from where you start. If you're cutting wood and someone puts a pile of [00:43:00] tree like firewood in your front yard or you're bucking it up for the condos at the ski area, you know, the hazard might be you start to buck up that firewood and you get to a certain balanced point on the log pile and the log rolls down the pile as the center of gravity shifts. So who else is around that pile? Does the log fall down the front of the pile towards you or does it fall down the back of the pile where there may be someone else also running a chainsaw? So you need to look at that storm damage wood. There's a lot of energy in those trees that come down with storms. So and sometimes they're being supported by other trees or power lines are still in the play. Even if the power's gone, there's a lot of energy in there. So when you make those cuts, what's going to happen to that? Wood is going to get thrown up or down and look what can happen sometimes for a chainsaw. Other people have been hit with kickback, right? So sometimes if you're just cutting a piece of wood on the ground, the only thing that's going to happen is an 18 inch block of wood is going to fall to the ground. You're thinking, well, there's not much of a hazard there. And I would agree with you as far as the [00:44:00] piece that you're cutting. But if you have a kickback, a chainsaw can be, you know, thrown out of your hands, back behind you. That may be the best case scenario. If it doesn't hit you, it can go, you know, 15, you know, 20 feet away from you. So even then and we've had people cut with brush saws as well, same thing. Kick back of a brush, saw, you know, cuts in into someone who was working right next to that person. Peter Koch: Yeah. And those work zones can be changing. You talked about brush saws. So if you if you got two or three people working in a particular area, mowing or basically weeding down through a particular space, if you don't maintain the same distance of your work zone from when you start to when you finish, especially if there's a funneling effect of the property that you're on, when you get down towards the bottom, you may be within that circular space of the brush saw swing as you go back and forth. And if you're not paying attention to that, you could easily swing in to the guy or gal that you're working next to. And the same thing even with working with your [00:45:00] chainsaw wood on the pile. As the pile gets bigger, you're adding wood to it as you go or the pile gets smaller. That work zone might actually change. Or if there's more people that are going to come into that particular space. Andy Wood: And it is a changing environment and you have to keep track again who's in your work zone. This happened a couple of years ago. We had a person was living and they got their saw pinched. OK, so that that'll happen to you occasionally. Sometimes you can go and pull on the limb a little bit. This was a big hardwood top. Sometimes you can go and pull on the limb. It'll take the pressure off the bar, the saw, so it'll come out of the same curve. So one person was pulling on the saw to try and get it out of the saw curve and his buddy saw what was happening and thought, well, I can go and pull on the top a little bit and it'll relieve the pressure on the, on the bar and he can get it out. So he comes walking right into the work zone unbeknownst to the person who's pulling on the saw. Just as this person walks by him, the saw comes out of the saw curve, he's got a death grip on the hand. So it accelerates [00:46:00] to full throttle. And the force of him pulling it back causes the sort to swing by and hit his buddy in the leg. That's coming to help him. Kind of a different scenario, but you need to keep track of, you know, before anyone comes in that war zone, the side needs to be shut off. So, you know, nothing's going to happen. I had one last year on a arborists site person was running a chainsaw. Again, arborists tend to work, you know, in the front yard where there's multiple people in a small area person turned around with his chainsaw still turning and sawed the person next to him right in the buttocks. So, yeah, you got to manage who's going to be around you and how big of an area you could have an impact in. Peter Koch: And I think that's an important lesson to learn. That knowledge of the work zone isn't just it's not established by just the sawyer or the person working the saw, but the people around you who are working with you need to understand that work zone, too, so that when you come into that space, if this is the no go space that you need to have eye contact with the operator and that  [00:47:00]saw needs to be in a safe position before you come in to engage in that space. Otherwise, the person using the saw doesn't know where you are or might not know where you are as they start to make a particular maneuver. Not you're not always going to pay attention to the people around you if you get focused completely on the work that you're doing. And it's unfortunate, but that's really human nature. We're going to forget sometimes some of the things that occur, especially if the saw gets stuck and you're feeling a little anxious about getting the work done or whatever is going to happen. So for sure, you need to make sure everybody knows what that work zone is. And the people working with you need to understand that too. Andy Wood: Right so much of what we do in these non production situations. It is a team activity. Someone's cutting brush, someone's lugging the brush off into a brush pile. They're lugging it to a chipper. You're cutting firewood and somebody's taking the blocks over to, you know, cutting the and pile. So, yeah, there's going to be people all around you. So just a little bit of a game plan before you start to [00:48:00] figure out how that's going to proceed. Peter Koch: Perfect. So then before we talk about training, which is really the last piece of this, let's talk briefly about what happens if an injury occurs. So you talk about EMS first aid, so talk a little bit about that. What's required for the saw operator from a first aid standpoint? And then what are some other considerations that if you're going to be working in the field with the chainsaw, you should have about injury management and EMS contact? Andy Wood: I guess the first thing I'd say is we look at first aid is it's not safety, you know, it's after you have an injury. It doesn't improve work behaviors and eliminate hazards, but it does help manage the injury afterwards. Important to have. So most of the standards out there require basic first aid and CPR, the OSHA logging standard. If you want to follow that one, all employees are going to have basic first aid and CPR. If you want to follow the arborists standard, if you're working, removing trees and developed areas. Same thing there. People have to have a knowledge [00:49:00] based on the hazards type of injuries you have, which are going to be big because they're going to be chainsaw cuts and struck by falling objects. So the standard lays out they have a very specific curriculum that has to be followed for those traumatic injuries. So your basic 8 hour first aid, CPR programs are going to cover that. The one thing I find interesting about the first aid is I don't think a lot of the certification cycles are two years. So I have to take that every couple of years. I have yet to go to one of those first aid trainings as a researcher and not have someone in the class tell a story about when they used the first aid training that they've got. Usually it's with their family and their kids, but it's once you get that knowledge, it's not heavy to carry around. You know, it stays in your head. And hopefully when you need that, it'll come back and help you quite a bit. So basic first aid training is part of the equation. Peter Koch: What about a first aid kit? Andy Wood: Yeah, I think the thing about first aid is you have to realize that a lot of places you're going to use it, you know, some of the first aid training, you're based on being three to five minutes from [00:50:00] advanced medical services. But most places you're using a chainsaw, a ski area, you're back on the back corner of the ski area or even a big college campus. You're for the first five minutes, you're on your own or you and your buddy. So important that someone right there, you know, or even prepared, Peter Koch: Even in rural spaces. Look at some of the communities around where I live in. You know, EMS is not five minutes away. You're talking 10, 15, sometimes 20 minutes, depending on where they're coming from. And the first response is going to be a volunteer response. And then the second response is going to be your EMS with the truck. I had story. My wife was driving home one day on our road and our neighbor, like a mile away from us, was laying in his driveway just and that's not a normal thing for him. And what had happened was he had been cutting wood in the fire, in the woodpile across the street in his woodlot, and he had cut himself in the arm with the chainsaw. And [00:51:00] he had managed to stumble all the way across the street, knock on the door to get his wife's attention. And then he passed out in the driveway. And my wife so his wife was actually on the phone with the EMS while my wife drove past to provide some first aid. And without the two together, he wouldn't have survived. So it just goes to show you that even though you think first aid might be that 911 call away, we're so used to that instantaneous response where you are, that might not be the reality. So you have to be able to provide for yourself with people that have good first aid training to start with, but then they have to have the right supplies with them in order for that to happen. So what's required for a first aid kit? Peter Koch: Sure. Again, if you look at the OSHA logging standard, there's a specific list. The Appendix B is going to tell you exactly what you have to have in there. The arborist standard has a similar thing. I don't care if you had a ski area or a campground. I'd suggest you look at, you know, look at those lists and see what's on them. And the biggest thing and [00:52:00] again, it has to be in serviceable condition anything that's medicated, you know, the expiration date as stay dry and clean with a chainsaw. The big thing that you need that is not going to be in any of your standard first aide kits is large trauma pads. So you need some blood, something blood stopping. The kind of wound that you get from a chainsaw is not a small cut that's going to be put back together with band aids and four by four gauze and some, you know, butterfly bandages. It's going to leave a gaping wound. So you need something that's really large, really large trauma pads, something to put pressure on there with. So roll or gauze or ace bandage and definitely a tourniquet. So for years we didn't talk about Tunicates. You know, they're back on the table. And I think they're a lifesaver. If you look at the type of injuries you're going to see about the only injury that you're going to treat yourself on the spot or you're going to die is blood loss. Most of the rest of the injuries, you know, you're not going to splint a leg in the field very often. Usually you're going to call the EMS [00:53:00] and they're going to look at it. A lot of the injuries, there's not much you're going to do other than package and comfort a person. Blood loss is something if you don't deal with that right on the spot, a person could be dead in two or three minutes. So having, you know, the training, but also having in the first aid kit some large trauma beds that are not left on the four wheeler or in the pickup as you continue to walk two or three or four hundred yards away from where you left your vehicle. The trauma pads need to go with you in the field. I say they should. No further than your fuel can, I'm assuming that you're fueling up multiple times and you don't get too far from it and a lot of them are made to be worn right on a belt. I have a tool belt that has a space for one blood stopper are right on it. Peter Koch: Yeah. And that might be the difference between saving your life, even if you can do your own first aid or the person working with you can do first aid on if you have it on you or have it right with you, that's the best option. Because if you're two or three minutes away and it's only going to take you two, three minutes to bleed out, you're three minutes from providing that [00:54:00] proper first aid to the person who actually needs it. So great advice to have the right training, have the right kit and then have that kit with you. And then the last part of this is access to EMS and making sure that your communication device is going to work no matter where you are. So if your plan is to be way out in the woods somewhere and your plan to access nine one, one is to use your buddy cell phone, make sure you got enough bars to get out to nine one. Andy Wood: Yeah, we have a lot of places still in Maine that don't have 911 one, you know, ski areas. You just get behind a mountain somewhere and you could you could lose that option. So, yeah, a little bit of plan, whether you have cell service or whether you have radios, who's going to help you who own property. If you're on a big property, who can you call in immediately to help with evacuation? And then as far as the EMS, you have two scenarios. We generally look at there. One, where you're going to stabilize the person and take them to a trauma center. So where's the nearest emergency room you would take them to? And the other is where you have an injury, [00:55:00] you know, suspected head neck spine where you don't want to move them. You're going to leave them on site and have the help come to them. So you need to kind of look at that in both ways. Are you going to take a person to a trauma center or are you going to stabilize the person and have EMS come to you? Peter Koch: Yeah, perfect. OK, so we've talked about PPE, we've talked about chainsaw use, we talked about work zones. We've talked about the aftermath. Not so much a safety piece, but a survival piece from an EMS standpoint. So let's finally talk about before we close here, let's talk about training and what might be you know, why is training important and what do people need to actually be competent with a saw? Andy Wood: Yeah. So there's no question training is the biggest piece of this. You know, I had a colleague, a fellow trainer who used to say, if you have good felling skills and you manage your hazards, you could cut wood in a Speedo and be safe. Not that I would encourage that. Peter Koch: I don't want to see that Andy Wood: it's a scary thought. But if you think about it, most of the injuries that we see are the result of workplace practices. And [00:56:00] you know what cutting method they were using decisions the person is making through the process. Not so much always a gear failure or something like that. So the training we adapted early on a formal training program. It was an international training program. It became known as game of Logging. It's probably the most recognized training program, you know, nationwide. It's got standardization of courses, instructor certification. And there's really only a couple that are recognized nationwide that in the one the Forest Service, the government uses for their woodland firefighters. And then there's a lot of spinoffs from that. So I would suggest, you know, you do a little research and find out who's offering the training. You know, that they've got some experience doing the training, but have a good program that works well and the training that we use game of logging. It was a Swedish labor consultant, actually a production woodcutter in his younger days, Soren Ericsson developed the training. He developed [00:57:00] the training not to be safe. The goal was to put more wood in the pile at the end of the day with less effort. And over time, people realized that the people who are cutting the most wood also were the people who weren't going to the hospital very often. So eventually it got misinterpreted as safety training, although it was really solely in the early days production training. And what we found out, as we pretty much found in most safety issues, you know, job quality, personal safety and productivity really can't be separated. They all three go together. Peter Koch: So with the training part where we have a training, if we're looking at if I'm looking to provide some training to my staff, I want to make sure that it's going to be recognized that it's going to cover personal protective equipment, that there's going to be some you're going to have some hands on part two because you can't learn how to use the chainsaw from a PowerPoint presentation in a classroom someplace. So it'll give you some basics. But you really have to translate that information back to a [00:58:00] return demonstration of skills so that the instructor can see what you're doing. And that's one of the benefits, I think, of the training that we do is that it combines both it has some didactic back and forth, some classroom to talk about the parts of the tooth and the mechanics of the stump and why it works. But then we take them out to the field to show how those things actually work together. And those were the real aha moments when I can think about what you talked about in the classroom from the mechanics of the stump and how every cut that happens first, the next cut is referenced off the cut prior to that. And if you make a mistake right in the beginning, whether it's information that you took that you took that was incorrect or you were off in your angles, then everything from that is going to be off a little bit unless you stop to correct it and you only have so many opportunities to correct it before you possibly have a catastrophic failure from the mistake. So looking at all those are important. One thing that you say frequently [00:59:00] is that no matter what training we do and how many days that we spend training is that training is not going to make you a chainsaw operator or it's not going to make you even a better chainsaw operator to change the training by itself. What has to happen in order for that training to translate into good work practices? Andy Wood: Right so when I'm having a conversation about training with people in industry and you know what training they want to do and what their goals are, I say if you look at the training on a scale of zero to 10 zero being where you're at and 10 being, you know, full compliance, exactly where you'd like to be training alone will get you to one, you know, maybe one and a half really good training. You might get to two, really. It's all about follow up and commitment to practicing those things that you learn to develop that into kind of a subconscious behavior for yourself. So the training in itself, it's kind of like learning how to read or, you know, you're going to start with the alphabet, but [01:00:00] that's really not going to get you anywhere in itself. You got to put that all together and get all the pieces together, the training that we do. You mentioned the hands on nature. The training that we do is all in the woods. It's in small groups. You know, there's a discussion, there's a demonstration explanation of how things work and then there's a return. Everyone will take a turn at that and they'll do explain whether it's how the Sawtooth works or what their plan is for failing. Then they'll partake and you'll do an evaluation. So it's something that while there's a lot of good information, you know, on the Internet, we use that as review for the training, the training, really, we like to put out there and a hands Hands-On format in small groups right in the field to begin with. Peter Koch: That's awesome. So we've reached about the end of today's podcast. And I think we're going to have you on again, Andy, to talk about some more of those specifics about the saw and maybe even some more about the training and what people can do to make their chainsaw safety process more robust. But I really wanted to thank you for sharing your expertise with us today. [01:01:00] So I appreciate that having you on today. Andy Wood: Sure it's been great. Hopefully the listeners will get something out of it. Peter Koch: I imagine they will. So, again, thanks again for joining us. And to all of our listeners out there for spending some time with us today. If you've got a chainsaw project or you've got a property clearing project, it's best if you start with looking at not internally, but look outside and contract, because there are professionals out there that have the training, that have the tools, that have the expertise to be much more efficient at managing some of those property cleanup projects that you have. So that's always a good place to start, even though we've talked about a lot of controls here on the podcast today, looking outside to a professional to come in might be your best bet. So today, we've been talking with Andy Wood safety management consultant here at MEMIC. And if you would like more information on chainsaw safety or would like to hear more about our particular topic on our podcast, e-mail me at [email protected]. Also check out our show notes at MEMIC.com/podcast, [01:02:00] where you can find links to resources. For a deeper dive into this topic, check out our Web site at MEMIC.com/podcast where you can find our podcast archive. And while you're there, sign up for our Safety Net blog so you never miss any of our articles or safety news updates. And if you haven't done so already, I'd really appreciate it if you took a minute to review us on Stitcher, iTunes or whatever podcast service that you've found us on. If you've already done that, well, thanks, because it really helps us spread the word. Please consider sharing the show with a business associate friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. And as always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Peter Koch reminding you that listening to the MEMIC Safety Experts podcast is good, but using what you learned here is even better.