Infertility III: A Conversation with Natasha Marchand of Bebo Mia

In this episode, I continue the conversation from previous episodes about the language surrounding infertility. Natasha Marchand, co-founder of Bebo Mia, discusses the unique situations of would-be expectant parents facing infertility, and what helpful and non-helpful language looks like.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara Pixton: Welcome to today's episode. Before we jump in, I just want to say if you have listened to the podcast before and you are loving it, please leave a review on your podcast app, so more people can find out about Birth Words and be touched by the things that we're talking about here. And now for today's episode. Natasha has been working with women to support their wellness goals for over a decade. She is a doula trainer, a hypnotherapist, prenatal fitness and yoga instructor, and a fertility specialist. As the co-founder of Bebo Mia and co-owner of Baby and Me Fitness, she loves helping women feel stronger and more confident in their lives, whether that is in their birth business, or as they move fertility all the way to parenting. She is also the proud mother of seven-year-old Sadie, conceived with ART after a four-year struggle, and recently gave birth to her second daughter, Margo. Welcome Natasha, to the Birth Words podcast.   Natasha Marchand: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.   Sara: I'm so excited to talk with you and for our listeners to gain your perspective. Do you want to give just a quick introduction of yourself and your business and what you're doing here on the podcast?   Natasha: Sure. Well, my name is Natasha, like you said. I struggled myself with infertility for four years before having my first daughter and then six years later, had my second daughter so there's quite a bit of a gap. And so there was many years where I struggled with infertility, but my background is in yoga and hypnotherapy, and obviously I'm a birth doula and of course to a trainer as well. So I use a lot of that to create programming for people who are struggling with infertility, because I felt like it was not only a professional thing for me but also really personal. And Bebo Mia itself as a doula training organization, or a training organization that works with birth workers who want to become doulas, for example, or perhaps work in the world of infertility or fertility as a fertility doula, which is something that's new and happening right now as awareness for infertility moves forward.   Sara: I love that. And one of the reasons I reached out to you specifically is because I saw that fertility doula training program on your website, and that really struck me. Like you said, it's not something that I'm really familiar with. I don't know any fertility doulas personally, but having had a small infertility journey of my own—Wow, I wish I had a doula there to guide me through it! Because It can be so difficult to navigate. So I'm so glad you have that going.   Natasha: Yeah, I didn’t have a fertility doula myself either. But because I was a doula at the time—I was a doula for many years before I had children of my own—so when I learned that this was going to be a struggle for me when I was figuring that out, I just started applying my work as a doula into my own life. And then recognizing that there were so many other people out there who didn't have support, who were doing this on their own or in silence, or in shame even. And so I started that to apply that into group work and into other people until eventually it just became my work as a fertility doula.   Sara: I love it. That's awesome. I am so excited to pick your brain a little bit here today. So I have some questions for you. The first one is: What unique challenges do would-be expectant parents meet when they first come face to face with fertility struggles?   Natasaha: I, you know, I can speak to my own experience and I can also speak to the experience of other people that I've witnessed. But the biggest thing is that realization that, you know, the idea of having children goes from that, like, when will I have children? to IF I'll have children. That's such a shift in everybody's mind frame. You know, you kind of grow up thinking okay, I'll do what everyone tells me I have to do you know, I'll go to college, I'll meet somebody, we’ll have a family, we’ll buy a house… all of those things will happen. And then suddenly, your expectations aren't meeting reality anymore, and that just kind of like flips everything on its side. Especially if you're someone like me who's like, I'm a planner. Like, I was like, yep, I turned 30, I'll have my kids, I’ll do… You know? I had it all planned out. And then suddenly it's like, will I even have kids? And if I don't—Who am I? Yeah, you know?   Sara: Yeah. And this episode I wanted to build on Episode number seven. I talked about my infertility journey and some research that I've come across. That goes a lot along with what you're saying of this idea of a reproductive story, that some people have it more consciously. Some people, it's more subconscious, but it totally disrupts that when you're faced with like, not when but if, and just it's a really challenging journey.   Natasha: Yeah. And it's, it really is what is this thing about me? You know, because like when you talk about language and you talk about infertility, like there's still really is this… It's not even unspoken, it's this value that's placed on women, in particular, to have children. Like that's part of our value. Like who are we, if we can’t have children. And now that that conversation is changing, but there still is these words that are used for people who don't have children, you know, like we hear it all the time. Like you're selfish or you'll change your mind, or you're too self-absorbed, or like all of this language that goes around, you know, choosing to not have children. Yeah.   Sara: Especially difficult when…   Natasha: There’s so much language around that. Yeah, like, Is there something I did wrong? Am I being punished? there's something wrong with me. So like, you can't really, you can't win, right? Because our value is so intertwined as women in particular, to having children. And that’s something we learn so early on, as young girls.   Sara: Yeah, all of this discourse that just surrounds us as we go. And then facing like, Oh, is that… Is that what I want for myself? Is that possible? with the infertility struggle, right? And you said, Am I doing something wrong? And I mentioned to you and now to our listeners that this episode is also building on a previous episode with Margaret Quinlan, who's a professor of Communications, who wrote… You're Doing it Wrong is the name of her book, because that's what people feel a lot from just the common rhetoric around pregnancy and motherhood and fertility. And that's a really, really difficult thing to be told either explicitly or implicitly and a really difficult thing to feel.   Natasha: Yeah, yeah. And I think that there are so many people out there who think that by giving advice, they're trying to help you, or they are helping you, because they do think that there’s something you're doing wrong, you know? Are you putting your legs up on the wall for 30 minutes after you have intercourse? No, Aunt Edna, I'm not. Like what? Like, you know, there's just so much. As soon as you say… as soon as you're brave enough to say that this is something you're struggling with, that's when you get all of this information that is not helping you at all. Really, it is just telling you what you said you're doing it wrong. And… these days. Are you relaxed enough? Are you going on vacation? Are you taking time for yourself? All of that is just blaming.   Sara: And that's so difficult when you said like, it's so vulnerable to open up and say, Hey, this is something that I'm struggling with, and then to be hit with all of that does not honor the vulnerability, right?   Natasha: That's right. And I if, if there was anything I wish I could do to change the language in this space, or to change the culture, in this space is to, to really have people understand how to best support somebody going through infertility. And like to explain that, quite often this unsolicited advice is not really welcome. You know, and even as, as birth professionals like we are, this can be a hard line for us because we want to believe in hope and to give people hope. And we can try it on this fine line where it's like, you know, if you do this, then you'll get pregnant, the same way often birth professionals can make that mistake of saying, if you have a birth plan, and if you give birth with this health care provider, and if you give birth at home or whatever, you know, your plan is, then you'll have the birth that you want. But really, that's, you know, we don't want to give people false hope, with infertility. You can do all of this thing, you can do everything. You can put your legs on the wall, you can go on vacation, you can do IVF. And still at the end of the day, not have a baby. Right? So we have to be really careful and mindful of our language and not offer this hope. Or it's like, oh, well, if you just did this, this would happen. Yeah.   Sara: So what can we do? We're wanting to support people struggling with infertility. We know a lot of the things we shouldn't say. We know why… we've talked about why it matters, the way that we talk. You can add more thoughts about that if you want, but what do we do? What do we say what is helpful?   Natasha: You know, I think being there for somebody and telling somebody that you're there for them is the most important thing we can do. Allowing them to be seen by you and allowing them the space to be vulnerable and, and validating the pain that they're going through is more important than anything else. Because that's what's not happening for them right now is they're saying that they're struggling, they're going through infertility. And what is coming back at them is usually something in between ‘you're doing it wrong’ or ‘it's really not that bad.’ I have a friend who has been struggling for four years or, you know, it's hovering somewhere in between that there. So what we need to do as healthcare practitioners is be okay with sitting in this uncomfortable space. Of this is just—can I swear?—this is just shitty. And that's what it is. And I am here to witness that with you and allow you to say how shitty this is to me.   Sara: And friends and family. Oh, sorry, I jumped in before you were done. And you said, like as professionals, but also like as friends and family, too, we've got a mixed listenership on this podcast. And I think that that applies to both. Would you agree?   Natasha: Absolutely agree. It applies. I agree. Yeah, that's right. There needs to be a shift in the way that we treat people going through infertility, because we don't talk the same way with people who have just been injured. You know? We don't talk to the same way who maybe just had a cancer diagnosis. We… this is a very special way that we talked to people who are going through infertility: we try to minimize it, or we try to be helpful, but we say the wrong things. Or we… there's not a recognition of how hard this really is. You know, just the little things that which I've heard, I'm sure you've heard before is like, once you realize it's going to be a struggle for you to have children, if that's something you truly desire to do, even things like getting a baby shower invitation in the mail is really hard. It can put you on the ground for, you know, days or weeks. And a lot of people don't understand that. They don't understand why you wouldn't show up. There really is not the validation around how painful this really is, how it leads to depression, how the stress rates are high for people who are going through infertility as people who are going through cancer treatments. There's not a recognition around that. It really is like, you know, ‘it will happen when it happens,’ or you know, ‘maybe it's not your time.’ There's such a minimization of the struggle that somebody is going through. Anyway, I get it. You can't really understand it until you've gone through it. But I'd love to see the culture change.   Sara: Yeah, me too. I think those are really powerful thoughts. And I think I'm… Once you have gone through it, too, there's also this temptation to like, use it as your chance to be like, “Oh, I know, it's hard because let me tell you about how hard it was for me,” which is also not a helpful response. Right? And if we're truly validating someone else's grief, we're not in platforming to, like, jump into our own, right?   Natasha: Yes. As professionals, I find that's a hard line to walk regardless of if you're a fertility doula or a birth doula, right, because our own experiences shape what we think is good, you know, what, what we think are good decisions. And, and that's just human nature, but our job is to come at things in an unbiased way. And so when we're working with infertility, you know, as a professional, we're not really able to say, you know, well for me, this works and so it should work for you. It really still…we have to really come back to being like, here's all the information, what decision do you want to make? And also support you through that?   Sara: Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. Another question for you. So how can those dealing with infertility harness the power of our words to help them in their journey?   Natasha: One of the big things that I do in my work as a fertility doula is, is to look at the language we're using with ourselves now, and so for many of us, well for me, when I first began this journey of infertility, it was really like I was really down on myself, I really questioned my lifestyle, I really question things I had done in my past, I had a lot of negative self-talk. And, and I knew better because this is what I do for a living. And so I had to work really hard to fix that. And I'm not trying to say that everything we have to say is positive. And when it comes to fertility, like I said, I don't want to be giving false hope. I don't want to give people you know, thoughts…try to put thoughts in people's heads that are like, ‘I will for sure have a baby’ or, you know, ‘close your eyes and imagine your baby.’ That can be so hard and triggering for somebody who's going through infertility. So let's work on our thought process in not in a way that's like positive or nothing. But in a way that's like, how can we reframe this so it feels healthier in our in our bodies? So we're not hurting ourselves and causing ourselves harm as we go through this. Like we're not making it worse. And so what we do a lot of the times is come up with balanced statements. So statements that feel true, or can stop that negative cycle that causes us like a downward spiral each day, you know, like when you wake up your ‘I'll never have a kid’ and, you know, ‘why? Why would I get up off the floor right now?’ Like all those…that kind of language that spirals and changes your actions throughout the day? Like how can we create a kinder and more gentle thing that you can say in the morning? You know, so, rather than saying, ‘I'll never have children,’ we don't go right to positive and say, ‘I will have children’ and wake up and expect that that's going to be the outcome. But how can we say, ‘you know what, today is the day that I'm going to practice my breathing techniques,’ or work a little bit more on myself, or you know, spend the day, you know, whatever it is. I really do sit down and spend a lot of time with my clients to figure out what wording would work best for them to be gentler to themselves, so the day doesn't feel as hard. Yeah, you know, what, what can you be doing each and every day to make this journey better? And how can we implant that language into our subconscious rather than what was fed to us?   Sara: I love all of your thoughts about that. And because I feel similarly with just my goal with this podcast and the other work that I do with Birth Words, the goal is not to be like, only positive talk, because sometimes there's some really negative stuff that already exists that you have to work through. But I like how you said, Let's reframe this, so it feels healthy in your body. And I think that reframing is critical.   Natasha: Yeah. And it's really like when I sit with my clients, and I do this work, there are questions that I asked, you know, if your negative self-thought is ‘I'll never have children, I'll never have children.’ You say that over and over again in your head. Okay, so, just what about that statement is true? You know, have you been told that you'll never have children? Are all paths towards having children closed to you? What are you willing to do to have children? You know, like really start dissecting where that negative thought comes from. Who told you that if you never have children, you're not a good woman, you know, or good person? You know, where are these thoughts coming from so that we can look at it and be like, Oh, that statement’s not really true. What is true is that I'm, I'm trying this avenue right now, and I'm giving it my best shot. And if this doesn't work, I'm willing to try another avenue. That sounds better, right?   Sara: And you sound so much more like an agent, making choices, being thoughtful about, ‘these are my options and this is the path that I can pursue,’ instead of being like this passive recipient of your fate, right?   Natasha: That's right. That's right. And putting some control into that because there is obviously the sense of a loss of control. Right? When you have when you have a plan and that plan is not happening for you.   Sara: K, I love, I so appreciate our conversation. I'm going to wrap it up with two quick questions here. The first one is, if you had to describe in one word, your feelings or beliefs about the fertility journey, what one word would you choose?   Natasha: The fertility journey or mine?   Sara: However you want to interpret it, and if you need to throw out a few we can, we can work with that.   Natasha: I wouldn't label it as… you know, it did change. But the beginning when I was just hearing about this and learning what a struggle it was going to be for me, I would have called it suffering.   Sara: Okay. And I love the thoughts that you've shared to help, again reframe that, to make it feel less like suffering, but also the earlier thoughts you shared about having other people recognize, this feels like intense suffering. I think that's, that's really fitting.   Natasha: Yeah. And it really was, I was gonna say it really was the, the getting out of that thought process and say, What can I do with this information now that I have it? How can I pull parts of my life to make a change to make this better? I feel very fortunate that I was already kind of in this birth world when I encountered this, because I was able to pull things together and create out of it, which really lifted me out of that suffering place. But not only that, it led me to find other people who were going through it. So I could say I'm suffering and they could say back to me, I'm suffering too. And that's still so much. Just being able to create that in my world was so important.   Sara: Thank you for sharing your story and your wisdom. How can we connect with you? Follow you personally or Bebo Mia, or whatever you want to throw out there.   Natasha: Sure, you can visit us at bebomia.com. We also have a blog post on this that comes with like a really large ebook just on how we can best support our clients who are going through infertility or who are now pregnant after infertility. So you can go to bebomia.com/birthwords. And that will be up for anybody who ever wants to see it. And if anybody ever wanted to join any of our programs, we have a BIRTHWORDS code for 15% off anything you'd ever want to join us with and become part of our community.   Sara: Love it. Thank you so much for your generosity and go head over to their website. Check it out. They have so many resources for birth professionals and really are doing something dynamic and new with the way that they're approaching all of it, so go check it out. It's worth it.   Natasha: Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me to be on the podcast.   Sara: It was so great to have you. Thanks so much, Natasha.   Natasha: Thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai